I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

Hand from today. I thought this was fairly straightforward, and would probably play it again the same way. But after the hand, a player that I consider to be good actually said that I played this hand very horribly. I went back and forth with him about it in the chat, and ultimately, he asked me to post it. Would like to hear if you thought I played this well.

5-10 6-max. The important opponent in this hand (BB) has about 1600 to start the hand and I cover. Two limps, cutoff raises to 55. I reraise to 155 from the button with pocket kings. Small blind folds. Big blind reraises to 500. Everyone folds to me. I call. 1080 in the pot. Flop is 9 high and uncoordinated. He moves all in for about 1100. I fold.

The player that told me that I butchered the hand said that "nothing changed" with the flop. If my hand was ahead - and calling the 500 was OK, then it was still ahead on the flop. He contends that I should have either played for all of my chips or folded to the flop reraise.

I disagree. I think that while aces is a possiblity for him (after all, he did put in a third raise), I do not have enough information to assume that and fold over his hand range. But when I get the additional bit of information of him moving all-in on the flop, then I am convinced enough that he has aces that I can fold.

I didn't think this was a particularly interesting hand, but the player that I was arguing with asked me to post it and see what you all thought.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

I think if you call preflop for 500 and fold this its burnign money. Against you, he will do this with QQ as much as AA.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

i agree with the other player.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

I think he was right in that nothing changed on the flop. If someone puts 50BB in preflop, they are obviously pushing for one PSB on the flop whether they have AA or 72o. I thought that the point of calling a preflop re-raise like that was to give villains a chance to push on the flop with an inferior hand. Why even spend 50BB preflop just to fold on the flop? The only information you gained is that you're now ahead of AK. Its up to you to decide if he has AA or not preflop, but I don't think that's the point of your post.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

Gotta go with your friend here.

Are you really playing KK for set value in this spot?

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

I agree with the other player. The BB's 4betting range can't be that big. Do you think he checks QQ/KK on the flop? I take it you believe he does check AK (although I'm not sure he even plays that preflop).

I'm curious as to what you think his 4betting range is?

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

if you didnt used to call these, you better start now that you posted this fold.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

LMAO is this serious..........

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

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Gotta go with your friend here.

Are you really playing KK for set value in this spot?

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Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

yeah no way this is serious....

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

This looks terrible.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

have to be up against super tight opponent to fold this, and you said you don't know much about him...so call. had similar hand today in 10/20, reraised initial raiser with kk...got reraised. flop was 484...he pushed...i called...he had qq and I took it down. jj+ or maybe even 1010 isn't out of opponents range here.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

It can be player dependent, but generally, when someone puts in that much preflop, there is only one move left. What else can he do? Can he bet any less? If he does, the money will go in anyway. You don't expect him to check and fold do you?

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two limps, cutoff raises to 55. I reraise to 155 from the button with pocket kings. Small blind folds. Big blind reraises to 500. Everyone folds to me. I call. 1080 in the pot. Flop is 9 high and uncoordinated. He moves all in for about 1100. I fold.

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The player that told me that I butchered the hand said that "nothing changed" with the flop.

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Posting without reading the responses, the other player is absolutely right. This is 6-max and BB's range should be high. You should call KK all day (even if an A appears on the flop). If he's re-raising the BB, he should be committing all his chips on the flop no matter what comes with his stack size. If you truly believe he has AA, your move should be to fold to the re-raise pre-flop as you're nowhere near deep enough to take the flop for a set. With a flop 9-high the scenario doesn't change; if you believe you were ahead pre-flop (reason you call and trap with KK), you must call the flop all-in as well.

[ QUOTE ]
I went back and forth with him about it in the chat, and ultimately, he asked me to post it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you don't regularly discuss strategy on open chat. I don't like educating my opposition.

Garland

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

man has the forum quality gone down in the past few mnths...

well played samo, but this isnt the kind of thing i would post in a public forum...

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
man has the forum quality gone down in the past few mnths...

well played samo, but this isnt the kind of thing i would post in a public forum...

[/ QUOTE ]

But now that you did, i'd like to hear a little more about how you narrowed villain's range to 1 hand.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

samo isn't saying he is playing the KK for set value here. he is saying when he is re-raised preflop he assigns a certain % to villain having AA. this % is not high enough for him to fold preflop in through a combination of possibly having the best hand and through outflopping.

however villain's flop actions dramatically raise his % of AA to a point where he can comfortably fold.

that said, i don't like the fold. at all. also, some type of read on the relative assumed skill level of the villain would be nice. if you left one out because you didn't have one, i obviously still dislike the fold.

i have been shown hands other than AA far too often in this spot to fold. add in any history or his knowledge of how aggressive you can be and it gets even worse.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

fold preflop. otherwise, 100% standard fold on flop imo. holla

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I think that while aces is a possiblity for him (after all, he did put in a third raise), I do not have enough information to assume that and fold over his hand range. But when I get the additional bit of information of him moving all-in on the flop, then I am convinced enough that he has aces that I can fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
how often is a typical player going to 3bet preflop, out of position, for 1/3 of his stack, and then NOT push the flop for just a pot-size bet? i don't see how you're gonna pick up additional info with any sort of frequency.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

What do you think villan would do if he had Queens

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

gus sums it up well. your general reasoning is indeed correct and your friend's is overly simplistic and misleading. that said, it is highly unlikely you had enough information about your opponent to rationally assign him hand ranges and action frequencies that make your line correct.

i don't think it very likely that many players apt to 4bet bluff or for thin value will assign you a narrow enough hand range after your preflop call, especially given your unorthodox style, to deter them from following through on the flop with a shove. i would need *significant* history to even consider this line an option. then again, i am not in the possession of your preternatural gift of intuition, so maybe my 'informational requirements' are too cautious for you!

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

sameolus, do you push if he checks to you?

Any reads on the opponent? it is hard to say what id do without one.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you didnt used to call these, you better start now that you posted this fold.

[/ QUOTE ]Seriously. Obviously villain might think to himself: [censored] he called this w/o any set odds, so clearly is willing to felt 100% of the time, so I should only push if I really have the aces here. Maybe if you're really in your opponents head thats reasonable. But now that you posted this, that assumption that opponent has, about your willingness to felt 100% of the time, drops....

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

i personally fold pre flop you know pocket kings are not the nuts right?

Edit, Math Wizes, odds of Aces vs. Kings in 6 max ?? 1 in 32 ?

Odds of you guessing correctly ? Plus this is 5-10.. any time you want to lay off part of this, pm me ill take it.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
But now that you posted this, that assumption that opponent has, about your willingness to felt 100% of the time, drops....

[/ QUOTE ]

That assumpotion dropped the minit he folded the flop I think.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

IF your opponent makes this move preflop with QQ or JJ, and is a thinking player, does he expect you to call on the flop with JJ or TT? If Villain is tag, he has AA here enough to make a fold preflop the best play, a flop fold/call about equal and tied for 2nd.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
man has the forum quality gone down in the past few mnths...

well played samo, but this isnt the kind of thing i would post in a public forum...

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, post it on your refrigerator instead so you can remind yourself how bad this is

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

lol I understand what you are saying flawless, but I won't play this the same way against other players and other situations. but thanks for the tip ...

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
i personally fold pre flop you know pocket kings are not the nuts right?

Edit, Math Wizes, odds of Aces vs. Kings in 6 max ?? 1 in 32 ?

Odds of you guessing correctly ? Plus this is 5-10.. any time you want to lay off part of this, pm me ill take it.

[/ QUOTE ]



the actual math doesn't really matter. the only thing that matters is the frequency with which he is doing 4-betting and betting the flop. if his range is AA-QQ (not saying it is), then it's 7-6 against him having AA. that's all that matters. that the probability of someone getting dealt AA is x% is 100.0000% irrelavent

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol I understand what you are saying flawless, but I won't play this the same way against other players and other situations. but thanks for the tip ...

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not sure, but i think he was classifying this as something too good to post

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

presumably the button vs a co raise is your widest 3-betting range preflop. how do people react to this? do they start 4-betting a lot lot more? do people get messed up by your seemingly maniacal play and start thinking QQ has to be good?

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

I personally think this is just terribly played.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
I personally think this is just terribly played.

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KN,

what would you do differently?

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

callcallcall

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

Honestly without some more meaningful context about your oppoenent and how the recent hands have developed, I don't think we can say with the appropriate degree of certainty that it's a good laydown/line for the hand.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

sam, I think as a standard line, this is pretty bad. However, that said, perhaps against this particular opponent, and with your read, it was played ideally. IE some players will 3-bet liberally and c-bet nearly every time, but given that he 4-bet and you still called, he has to realize you probably always have a monster here, and he still pushes. I'd usually instacall this, but given your read and explanation, it's hard to argue against. If nothing else, I think you bring up a good concept. It reminds me a lot of a situation like calling a flop c/r with an overpair, only to fold to a strong turn lead. Same concept (you don't know he's going to make that bet), just different situations.

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

Are you guys [censored] serious?

Get off the guys dick and realize this might be the shittest play ever......I don't care if the guy shows me aces everytime. I never fold here, its retarded...

Sam why even bother calling pre? You think hes going to check the flop for you. LMAO

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

Guys,

I hate to say it, but I could not agree more w/ KingNeo and EmpireMaker.

holla

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

Seriously.

This is how I would have played it differently.

Based on the player I sometimes fold preflop in these situations.

If I decide to call the reraise preflop (especially if it is $500) then I am definitely going all the way with it. This is an insta call and a no brainer at that.

There are only 2 ways to play this hand IMO. Calling preflop and then folding on the flop is mind numbing.

WTF do you think this guy is gonna do on the flop after he reraises to $500 preflop? Do you think he is ever going to check ?

Re: I thought this was fairly straightforward
 

[ QUOTE ]
Guys,

I hate to say it, but I could not agree more w/ KingNeo and EmpireMaker.

holla

[/ QUOTE ]

ditto