Hand (large pot)
 

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero ...

And the questions is in addition to the turn action, did my hand get worse or better on the turn? And did I make a mistake on the flop?

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

first when it gets to you im 50/50 between 3betting and calling. when it comes back to you after the 3 bet id cap it. on the turn your hand got worse- 3 broadways mean one more and you're looking at a straight and now another club could be scary as well.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

I would 3-bet the flop in a heartbeat with top 2..SB most likely is making a continuation bet and BB is raising to protect his hand...if you 3-bet then maybe SB folds, chances are not but its a larger chance he fold to 2 more coming back moreso than just one more....As for the turn I would just call down now. Theres always the chance that SB raised with AJ and now has the top two or he could have AA JJ or even TT.

Edit: Now that I look at it again there could also be a straight out there and even more so after the turn. KQ flopped the OESD off the flop so that hand would not be folding and now the Ace completed the nut straight.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
on the turn your hand got worse

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct, my hand definitely got worse.

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

krishan: why are you posting a 5/10 6-handed hand in the micros? you typically post in HUSH.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
krishan: why are you posting a 5/10 6-handed hand in the micros?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's a really interesting hand. And in the end, poker is just poker.

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

TJo should not be paying for raises, even after money is in the pot. I actually lost a lot of money on this starting hand my first 3k hands or so, because I saw it as a calling hand in late position, which now I believe is a mistake unless your on the button without a raise or in the SB.

3 and 4 bet the flop, a good portion of the time your way ahead. That is unless SB is holding quads. It is most likely he has 88 though, because you hold the other J and T - and that is not a raising hand most of the time.

On the turn, you may have some issues with straight draws being made. I would call 1 BB to see the river.

EDIT - Didn't realize this was 6 max, and I know nothing about starting hands there, so sorry if I made an error on the starting hand of TJo.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

yeah i know. i was just asking. it's kind of a rare thing. haven't seen you post in this forum for a long time.

i don't see many hands that are willing to 3-bet that flop and continue to lead into a field of 4 when an A falls. you're in trouble IMO.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]

3 and 4 bet the flop, a good portion of the time your way ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

What sort of equity do you think I have on the flop?

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

Hm. No flop 3-bet? Were you planning on raising a turn blank?

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i know. i was just asking. it's kind of a rare thing. haven't seen you post in this forum for a long time.

i don't see many hands that are willing to 3-bet that flop and continue to lead into a field of 4 when an A falls. you're in trouble IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a teacher and I have time on my hands during the school day to post a lot. During the summer I play much more and can only keep up with a couple forums.

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hm. No flop 3-bet? Were you planning on raising a turn blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, what do you think?

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hm. No flop 3-bet? Were you planning on raising a turn blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think we have to consider maybe stake limits in this one. 5/10 isn't like calling .5/1. and we have a field of 4 ALL still in the hand after cold calling that flop.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

I think KK and QQ could still be included in villains range of hands, but so should AJ, KQ, 88, and the rare JJ or TT. Any A, K, Q, 9, 8, and maybe a club on the river really ruins your day. That's 18 cards minimum, plus 3 more outs worth of clubs you might give your opponents. If you're ahead, you're only a slight favorite to win the hand. If you're behind, you're drawing to 2-4 outs, and if it's 2, you're not sure which 2 are good. I think your outs combined with the chance you're ahead make this a call, and pray for the 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to fall.

And I think I 3bet the flop.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]

And I think I 3bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo. Does a flop 3-bet protect my hand? Are there a lot of turn cards that destroy my hand? Will my equity be higher on the turn if a blank comes? Will I be well position to take advantage of a turn blank?

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

Flop: Good. Raise a turn undercard.
Turn: Wow, what a shitty card... we have 4 outs to a boat against a straight, but if SB has what he is representing (two pair), we probably have only 2 outs to beat him. This pot is so big though, that I call, and call again on a river blank. A raise here is just throwing away money.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And I think I 3bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo. Does a flop 3-bet protect my hand? Are there a lot of turn cards that destroy my hand? Will my equity be higher on the turn if a blank comes? Will I be well position to take advantage of a turn blank?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose a flop raise doesn't do much in the way of hand protection. SB probably won't fold getting at least 11:1 if we 3-bet. On the turn we don't want to see: a 9, a 7, a K, a Q, an A, or an 8. Any of those could give someone a straight or a higher two pair.

So our equity shoots way up on the turn, assuming everyone is cold calling with a decent draw.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: Wow, what a shitty card...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it really? I mean I'd define a shitty turn card as one that comes two bets to me on the turn. So despite it not being very good, it's not aweful. SB could have AJ, KQ or AA and that turn made his day but should I be worried about the callers?

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

A 7,9, or T is worse for sure, but that Ace is the next worst card. If it came two cold to you, yes, it's very shitty and fold-worthy. I'm not worried about the callers. At least two of them are probably drawing to some piece of the straight, so their outs overlap.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Turn: Wow, what a shitty card...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it really? I mean I'd define a shitty turn card as one that comes two bets to me on the turn. So despite it not being very good, it's not aweful. SB could have AJ, KQ or AA and that turn made his day but should I be worried about the callers?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero ...

And the questions is in addition to the turn action, did my hand get worse or better on the turn? And did I make a mistake on the flop?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I raise here. I'm not convinced that you're behind because the only hands that are helped by the ace (helped = made a stronger hand than yours, not picking up a draw) are AA, KQ, AJ, AT, A8. I don't think you were chasing on the flop (and I like the wait-for-the-turn call being last to act), so only a few hands actually improved with the ace.

However, it's a scary card for you because it has given tons of redraws to all sorts of hands. AK has a two pair redraw, any king or queen picked up a gutshot. And given a reasonable set of preflop raising hands from SB, I think he has one of those hands that picked up a draw against you. Somebody might have picked up two draws on that turn, if they held two clubs.

What about the donks in the middle? I would imagine they have either a nine or a painted card. Either way, I don't think they have you beat.

A raise here for value, even with lots of players drawing against you is a good play. I think you've got the best hand and let the river bring whatever it brings. I think I would squeeze a river value bet on any brick if it gets checked to me. Too many worse hands will call because the pot is big and their hands are reasonable.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero ...

And the questions is in addition to the turn action, did my hand get worse or better on the turn? And did I make a mistake on the flop?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I raise here. I'm not convinced that you're behind because the only hands that are helped by the ace (helped = made a stronger hand than yours, not picking up a draw) are AA, KQ, AJ, AT, A8. I don't think you were chasing on the flop (and I like the wait-for-the-turn call being last to act), so only a few hands actually improved with the ace.

However, it's a scary card for you because it has given tons of redraws to all sorts of hands. AK has a two pair redraw, any king or queen picked up a gutshot. And given a reasonable set of preflop raising hands from SB, I think he has one of those hands that picked up a draw against you. Somebody might have picked up two draws on that turn, if they held two clubs.

What about the donks in the middle? I would imagine they have either a nine or a painted card. Either way, I don't think they have you beat.

A raise here for value, even with lots of players drawing against you is a good play. I think you've got the best hand and let the river bring whatever it brings. I think I would squeeze a river value bet on any brick if it gets checked to me. Too many worse hands will call because the pot is big and their hands are reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent analysis. I did raise, all called. I bet the river and won. (I was ahead on the turn) Here is a link to the thread in HUSH and what people there had to say about it.
link

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

i was going to say exactly what Aaron said he just types faster [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

..."no, not really, i can't back that up". this is just a "slap on the back" for Aaron on his analysis [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

I would surely 3 bet the flop, I think p1 prob has something like AJ, and player 2 may have a draw or something like JK, or A10 and wanted to buy a free card, lots of aggression is common at the 6 max tables. Anyways, your almost assuredly ahead in this situation so make em pay to draw against your hand, that turn card is about worst case scenario because youve filled about half of the players possible hands to a bigger 2pr, or str8. I vote for check call after the turn. I run into tons of maniacs at 5/10 6 max, what was your read for these guys?
cdl

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero ...

And the questions is in addition to the turn action, did my hand get worse or better on the turn? And did I make a mistake on the flop?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

great post. thanks.

(in future, just change the limit to 1/2 6max - i know it's a trivial thing but it helps people who are learning to not have to get over that big number shock)

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

I like the flop coldcall.

I don't know what to think about the turn without a read on SB. My first thought was that AK &amp; AQ are more likely than AJ, AT, KQ or a set, but I don't know if he's 3-betting AK/AQ on the flop; though it's a possibility if he's aggressive. I think with the overlay you're getting from the 3 callers I would close my eyes and raise here and bet the river. If 3-bet, call and make a Helmuthesque river laydown UI.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

I think the turn is close between calling &amp; raising, but is the flop that close? I'm shocked that so many of those guys wanted to 3-bet the flop. It's very similar to the JT8 hand example in SSH, which somebody mentioned.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn is close between calling &amp; raising, but is the flop that close? I'm shocked that so many of those guys wanted to 3-bet the flop. It's very similar to the JT8 hand example in SSH, which somebody mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If you wanted to 3-bet thee flop in this hand, you aren't, "waiting until the turn to raise" often enough.

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what to think about the turn without a read on SB. My first thought was that AK &amp; AQ are more likely than AJ, AT, KQ or a set, but I don't know if he's 3-betting AK/AQ on the flop; though it's a possibility if he's aggressive. I think with the overlay you're getting from the 3 callers I would close my eyes and raise here and bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really good analysis. The idea is I'm not in great shape against the SB. I'm definitely worse off than I was on the flop. But I'm getting such fantastic overlay from the callers that even if I'm only ahead say 30% it's +EV to raise. You also are overlooking QQ and KK in his hand range.

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

:grunching:
6 Handed I guess the CCPF is ok given your position.
Flop I would play it the same most likely, could be up against any big pair with the SB PFR. JJ is possible. AA or KK seems most likely.
Turn you are probably in trouble (if we put him on AA) he could just as easily have KK though and I would call it down, hoping to pair the board on the river for a possible Boat.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You also are overlooking QQ and KK in his hand range.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! How would you grade his turn play? I think I'd check/call with Kings; and bet/fold if not for the straight draw.
MP really overcalled the river with QJ? I guess you posted in the right forum.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You also are overlooking QQ and KK in his hand range.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! How would you grade his turn play? I think I'd check/call with Kings; and bet/fold if not for the straight draw.
MP really overcalled the river with QJ? I guess you posted in the right forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, trip jacks was the second best hand. I think bet call on the turn isn't horrible. The ace was really bad for SB, no way around it. Check calling because of the straight draw isn't bad. He is getting enormous overlay when behind. And there is a chance he is ahead.

Krishan

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You also are overlooking QQ and KK in his hand range.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! How would you grade his turn play? I think I'd check/call with Kings; and bet/fold if not for the straight draw.
MP really overcalled the river with QJ? I guess you posted in the right forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, trip jacks was the second best hand. I think bet call on the turn isn't horrible. The ace was really bad for SB, no way around it. Check calling because of the straight draw isn't bad. He is getting enormous overlay when behind. And there is a chance he is ahead.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Whoops - didn't even see the river card.

Less free time during the summer? I gotta become a teacher.

Re: Hand (large pot)
 

*Bump*

I was digging around for threads to add to the MicroLimit Public Library I rediscovered this jewel.