(109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

PartyPoker $109 Speed Tournament, Big Blind is t600 (4 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

CO (t264)
Button (t1323)
SB (t12886)
Hero (t5527)

Preflop: Hero is in BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB (Thinks forever) calls t300, Hero checks

Flop: (t1200) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t800</font>, Hero??

Last hand he made a big call with AT for all but T200 of his chips on a board of AK8r. So he doesn't seem afraid to gamble with a micro stack about to post.
Preflop I nearly typed in the chat for him to push any two.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

stick it in here. the pot is big enough to take now.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

I would try for more chips here. Yeah, the pot is decent now, but you've got a great chance to get more chips from the big stack. Why not just call? The only real danger is giving diamonds a peek.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

with other stacks being the way they are taking the pot now is good. any dia,9,8,7,6,4 or him pairing his over card if he has a 7 or 5 could cost us the pot and bust us.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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I would try for more chips here. Yeah, the pot is decent now, but you've got a great chance to get more chips from the big stack. Why not just call? The only real danger is giving diamonds a peek.

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Push you don't want a call here.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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with other stacks being the way they are taking the pot now is good. any dia,9,8,7,6,4 or him pairing his over card if he has a 7 or 5 could cost us the pot and bust us.

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Which is why I wouldn't risk a push to win a pot this size. Calling the flop doesn't kill us since we still retain the ability to make future decisions in position.

Also, if he has any piece/draw he might call risking just less than half his stack to virtually win the tournament. If he's got crap, then the turn isn't going to put him ahead &amp; he might bet again.

Of course I expect many people to say push here, but I still am not a fan.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

I think this is a clear push. You have 2 pair. I don't see how you can fold. If you call, you start getting yourself in trouble with scare cards.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

Anyone comfortable with postflop play care to chime in?

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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Anyone comfortable with postflop play care to chime in?

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Did you notice that we're on the bubble and there are 2 other players with a combined 1500 chips? If you slowplay this, you're crazy.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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Anyone comfortable with postflop play care to chime in?

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Why are you playing if you are really afraid of any overcard/pair or flush draw here calling? Don't forget that you are in commanding position if he donks this off to you on a draw. How far you are ahead + enourmous amount of FE = instapush.

I understand that you don't want to risk bubbling with those two shorties, but by taking that weak stance you are telling yourself you will never stand up to a big stack on the bubble. No one wants to bust here, but letting a big stack run you over whenever you are second in chips is just asking for less money over time.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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I would try for more chips here. Yeah, the pot is decent now, but you've got a great chance to get more chips from the big stack. Why not just call? The only real danger is giving diamonds a peek.

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Push you don't want a call here.

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Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

Yeah I'd push as well.

Ryan

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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PartyPoker $109 Speed Tournament, Big Blind is t600 (4 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

CO (t264)
Button (t1323)
SB (t12886)
Hero (t5527)

Preflop: Hero is in BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB (Thinks forever) calls t300, Hero checks

Flop: (t1200) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t800</font>, Hero??

Last hand he made a big call with AT for all but T200 of his chips on a board of AK8r. So he doesn't seem afraid to gamble with a micro stack about to post.
Preflop I nearly typed in the chat for him to push any two.

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You really aren't all that far ahead here if he has any kind of hand.

71% vs. ANY 7 or ANY overpair
60% vs. 66
75% vs. 44
Crushed by a set or higher two pair, of course.

Call and await developments. If he steals it from me later, that's life. Given the stack situation, where you can pretty much fold into second, there's absolutely no way I go broke on this flop.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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you will never stand up to a big stack on the bubble.

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Actually, you really can't go very far wrong with this approach when you are the second stack and there are two shorties, and why is everyone getting so excited over bottom 2 pair?

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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you will never stand up to a big stack on the bubble.

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Actually, you really can't go very far wrong with this approach when you are the second stack and there are two shorties, and why is everyone getting so excited over bottom 2 pair?

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Pineapple, it's because we have the best hand and lots of FE.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

2 pair is a good hand. There's a very good chance Villain will fold. If he calls, you're very likely ahead.

Calling, also, will likely not tell you much about your hand. What if Kh comes off on turn and villain pots it? Are you going to fold?

Ryan

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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you will never stand up to a big stack on the bubble.

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Actually, you really can't go very far wrong with this approach when you are the second stack and there are two shorties, and why is everyone getting so excited over bottom 2 pair?

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Pineapple, it's because we have the best hand and lots of FE.

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If you are called, you essentially have something like AQ against a random hand.

Hint: You don't want to have AQ against a random hand.

Wait for a turn where your equity will drastically change (hint #2: diamonds are probably not scary at all).

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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PartyPoker $109 Speed Tournament, Big Blind is t600 (4 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

CO (t264)
Button (t1323)
SB (t12886)
Hero (t5527)

Preflop: Hero is in BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB (Thinks forever) calls t300, Hero checks

Flop: (t1200) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t800</font>, Hero??

Last hand he made a big call with AT for all but T200 of his chips on a board of AK8r. So he doesn't seem afraid to gamble with a micro stack about to post.
Preflop I nearly typed in the chat for him to push any two.

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You really aren't all that far ahead here if he has any kind of hand.

71% vs. ANY 7 or ANY overpair
60% vs. 66
75% vs. 44
Crushed by a set or higher two pair, of course.

Call and await developments. If he steals it from me later, that's life. Given the stack situation, where you can pretty much fold into second, there's absolutely no way I go broke on this flop.

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Against those ranges... we win roughly 70% of the time. Also, there's no reason that he HAS to call with any of those hands here. And there's no reason to believe that he must have hit this flop. I push here 150% of the time.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

Woah, woah guys. You are drastically over thinking this. He has led out after limping. He could have ANYTHING. He could have a hand we are ahead of or he could have complete air. Please instapush.

If he would have c/r us then this could definately be a fold and a different story.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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you will never stand up to a big stack on the bubble.

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Actually, you really can't go very far wrong with this approach when you are the second stack and there are two shorties, and why is everyone getting so excited over bottom 2 pair?

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Pineapple, it's because we have the best hand and lots of FE.

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If you are called, you essentially have something like AQ against a random hand.

Hint: You don't want to have AQ against a random hand.

Wait for a turn where your equity will drastically change (hint #2: diamonds are probably not scary at all).

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While I often agree that waiting for the turn is a good play, with such a vulnerable hand and moderate show of strength, you will have very little idea where you stand on a lot of turn cards. If you want to fold you'll give yourself a good chance to do it with the best hand, and if you want to trap money I would argue that you're taking to big a risk to do so.

Also, while diamonds may not be scary in terms of giving your opponent the best hand they will often give him a good deal of equity when there's a good chance he gets allin.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

You aren't "trapping" anything by waiting until the turn, you're trying to alter ranges so you don't accidentally get it in as a ~60%-70% favorite (which SUCKS.)

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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You aren't "trapping" anything by waiting until the turn, you're trying to alter ranges so you don't accidentally get it in as a ~60%-70% favorite (which SUCKS.)

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Additional points:

1.) Having the "best hand" is irrelevant in a situation where QQ is a preflop fold even if you know biggie is pushing any two

2.) Why did he think about it then just complete preflop? Is nobody worried that he's trapping? Remember we suck against an overpair.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

ehhh good thing I never get into this situation but probably the guys who say to call are right....I dunno.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

There's a small chance he's trapping. He could have been distracted, he could have wanted you to think he has a hand so you don't push him off... he could just be a major donk. Who knows? Either way, I'm never folding here and I'm always pushing. If he has an overpair, we're still a 70/30 favorite.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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ehhh good thing I never get into this situation but probably the guys who say to call are right....I dunno.

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I'll take that as a ringing endorsement. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

And I'm curious, why do you never get into this situation? It's not all that uncommon in my experience. I mean, not this exact hand, but where you are second and there are two shorties and you just have to chill pretty much no matter what.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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There's a small chance he's trapping. He could have been distracted, he could have wanted you to think he has a hand so you don't push him off... he could just be a major donk. Who knows? Either way, I'm never folding here and I'm always pushing. If he has an overpair, we're still a 70/30 favorite.

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You know, you can still win the hand later. Anyway, I'm done.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

I never get into spot where I flop 2 pair I mean, against 2 really short stacks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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I never get into spot where I flop 2 pair I mean, against 2 really short stacks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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curtains is usually the short stack so he never has to worry about villain short stacks [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

i would just call.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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Wait for a turn where your equity will drastically change (hint #2: diamonds are probably not scary at all).

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This sums up my thoughts as well. The equity change from flop --&gt; turn is very, very significant. In fact I'll type this unnecessary sentence so you stop and think about that for a bit.

I suppose adanthar is right with diamonds not being bad. So the only bad cards are any 7, 6, 4. Shove anything else on the turn.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

Whoa time out everyone. Do we realize that if we do NOTHING, we are essentially guarnteed money, which means that risking our stack (i.e. pushing), even when a 70% favorite is really REALLY bad. Note this line from the OP:

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he doesn't seem afraid to gamble with a micro stack about to post.

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Call. See turn. If benign, push.

Risking a 30% chance of $EV=0 is quite bad when the chance of AT LEAST 3rd place finish is almost assured.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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There's a small chance he's trapping. He could have been distracted, he could have wanted you to think he has a hand so you don't push him off... he could just be a major donk. Who knows? Either way, I'm never folding here and I'm always pushing. If he has an overpair, we're still a 70/30 favorite.

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You're missing the point. At this stage of the tournament chip values and real money values are dramatically different. Your equity if you fold might be 30%. If you win your equity might go up to 40% (this may be high since most of the time you win your opponent will fold). If you lose your equity is 0. (I am just throwing out these numbers, they are probably off a little but they serve to make a point) With these numbers you would need to win the hand over 75% of the time just to break even. Your 70/30 edge is costing you money.

Another point. The best result of this hand is that you call the flop bet, and the opponent checks it down. You are the big blind in an unraised pot. You have position. Your opponent has no idea what you have. To think that he is just going to keep firing chips at the pot if you call is mistaken. He might, but I think there is a good chance he'll check it down which is exactly what you want.

Paul

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

Guys, he limped in. He then led. We're in great shape even if he has a hand(although I agree not enough), but have you not considered how much FE there is? He limped &amp; led. He has complete air very often.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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Why are you playing if you are really afraid of any overcard/pair or flush draw here calling?

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Uh...I'm not afraid. I'm trying to win more chips since we're ahead nearly always.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

For thoses saying just call...

Turn (2800) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets 1800. Hero?

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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For thoses saying just call...

Turn (2800) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets 1800. Hero?

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..is glad he didn't push preflop.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

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For thoses saying just call...

Turn (2800) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets 1800. Hero?

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This is exactly why I shove the flop.

EDIT: I understand getting called on the flop is really not good, but I don't think we get called that much. I'm fine with calling on the flop because I get why people want to do it, but it makes the turn a bitch and a half. Are you guys who said call the flop now folding this turn? This is where I think the problem with the call line occurs.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

Yeah, obviously I meant "flop" and not "preflop"

Villain has the stack for calling with the Ax of diamonds, in my opinion. Heck, he might even call with a lesser flush draw.

Re: (109) Bubble two pair with short stack about to post
 

My read on villain is that he wants your stack. If he'd just wanted the blinds he'd have raised or pushed and unless you have aces you really can't call.

His limp to me implies he has a hand, either a pair of some sort or a big ace.

From your read it appears villain isn't folding to a push either.

I imagine this is perhaps a time when super weak is the best play. Call and see the turn, then unless you improve try and get to the river as cheaply as possible, else just fold your way into the money. Villain could just as easily have a set here as he could have a big ace FD or trash. And the cost of finding out if you're behind is probably too high.

In the heat of the battle I'd probably just push. But this seems to make the most sense. You're guaranteed to money why risk anything just now.

Thoughts anyone ?