50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

I have played with villian 4 or 5 sessions-
He is loose preflop, calls raises out of position often.
postflop:
calling station (will call with or without proper odds for draws,etc.)
slow plays
capable of check raising made hands and bluffs on all streets. Basically, hard to put him on hands.

I think villian perceives me as a tricky solid player (I have moved him off of overpairs and shown in the past)
Villian has around 10k and I cover

folded to me in mp and I raise to 400 (standard raise for me) with 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

only villian calls in small blind

flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] pot:900

villian checks and I check behind. villian could have anything but most likely nothing and I want to string him along

turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Villian checks and I bet 600.
Villian miniraises 600 more. I reraise to 2600 and villian thinks for a short bit and calls 2000 more.

river: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] pot: 7300
Villian checks pretty quickly, hero???

Results and thought process to follow

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Your flop play is very bad. If you're going to be playing 36s it's criminal to not try playing a big pot when you flop the nuts with it.

As it is, I probably throw out 4500 and call a c/r all in.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

checking this river would be way more criminal than not betting the flop.

so first of all, given the history between you and villain, bet the flop. bet half pot, like 400 or so if you think there is a good chance he will play back at you. then use position to stack.

given the way the hand played out, either shove the river if he is capable of making big calls, or bet 4000 or something... not betting here is insane.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
postflop:
calling station (will call with or without proper odds for draws,etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

and

[ QUOTE ]
(I have moved him off of overpairs and shown in the past)

[/ QUOTE ]

don't compute.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
postflop:
calling station (will call with or without proper odds for draws,etc.)
slow plays
capable of check raising made hands and bluffs on all streets

[/ QUOTE ]

So why would you check the flop?

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Shove.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Bet the flop for sure.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

D,

Wow. That is the perfect flop for you to bet against this opponent. I really, really can't understand your flop check.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Jeez..it's post like these and those by daliman etc that make the regulars disappear, and I kind of like reading what the people that really DOES know poker has to say. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] No offence, and I'm obviously a newbie compared to most of the guys here, but the forum is going down the drain with all these really, really stupid posts clogging up the forum :/

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

I agree checking the flop is a bad play and not standard for me

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Villian is a calling station in general but not real bad

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
D,

Wow. That is the perfect flop for you to bet against this opponent. I really, really can't understand your flop check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is a calling station in general but not real bad

[/ QUOTE ]OMFG, its like you wanted to do everything in your power to stop this guy from giving u chips. i thijnk the worst play in this hand is the raise from 1200-2600 total, WTF is that?

whats your question about the river? push obviously.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

MDMA,

I may be under the influence of certain known or unknown substances right now, but is this post aimed at me or diablo? If me, I of course apoligize for waisting your time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

My post was obviously aimed at El D. His apparent donkness, his posting of newbieesque and clueless posts, and his general lack of poker knowledge has been apparent for quite some time now. Long has he eluded the wrath of the mods, but no more.

Begone o'draconian devil!

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

If only you'd reraised the turn a bit more, the money would have gone in no matter what rivercard. Also, if villain takes on off with overcards on the flop, you should bet the flop always.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Dakine, given your description of the opponent and your history, this is an unbelievably perfect flop for you to bet. I really do not understand your logic for not betting this turn against a tricky, loose player who calls without proper odds. Flopping the nuts on a 5 high board against a player who sounds like he might attack with QJ here - no telling what he would do with a real hand. I check back here 0% of the time against the opponent you described.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
My post was obviously aimed at El D. His apparent donkness, his posting of newbieesque and clueless posts, and his general lack of poker knowledge has been apparent for quite some time now. Long has he eluded the wrath of the mods, but no more.

Begone o'draconian devil!

[/ QUOTE ]

freezeout?!

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

I think I overstated villian's tendencies to make "moves" with nothing on the flop.
Although, I 100% agree that I blew it by not betting flop, villian has mostly folded to my cbets in the past.

I would like to move on from the missed flop bet and hear thoughts on turn and river.

I raised 2000 on top of his miniraise on the turn attempting to leave a 2/3 pot bet left for the river but fell a bit short

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

I felt villian range on the turn after his 2000 call was:
flush draw-highly likely as I have seen him miniraise with draws before
two pair, set
less likely Ace (not with flush draw since ace of hearts fell on turn)
small chance 3 (I think he pushes with a 3)

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Dakine, what will villain think of you checking back the flop? how often do you return a check, closing the action when you were the preflop raiser (especially heads up to the flop).

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Given that you checked the flop (?) you have to raise more on the turn. Nearly half the deck sucks for you on the river given your description of this opponent.

You're beat too often on the river and have too much behind to make a push the best play, your opponents play suggests his hand either got much better or much worse with the river card. Check behind.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I felt villian range on the turn after his 2000 call was:
flush draw-highly likely as I have seen him miniraise with draws before
two pair, set
less likely Ace (not with flush draw since ace of hearts fell on turn)
small chance 3 (I think he pushes with a 3)

[/ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: I'll probably never play this high in my life, but fwiw...

I think you have to go with your gut here on the river.

Checking behind him is only a small mistake, but if you have a good reason to think the river boated him and he's capable of checking it for a raise - and you bet and then call a push and get stacked, that is a big mistake. You did think he might have called your turn bet to try to fill up with 2 pr or a set...and the river paired the board! And I just hate the value bet, fold to a push line...I don't get it.

I'd agree with others that if your postflop play was different you'd have a better idea what to do on the river.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision-Results
 

Sam,

Villain most likely thinks I have ak or some other big card combination if I check the flop. I'm not sure if villian knows my wide range of raising hands even though I haven't raised much so far this session and this is the first time we have played 50/100 together

Results

No doubt I played this hand pretty bad that is why I posted the hand.

The turn, I think a raise of 2500-3000 more in instead of 2k more would of been better even though my 2k raise gave villian about 2.5/1 odds to call for his probably draw and of course gave him plenty of room to make an all in move.

The river is where I thought some discussion would be given the way the hand played out-

villian has about 6k left and the pot is 7300

1)I think an all in given the board pairing is bad for obvious reasons

2)a bet from 3k-5k imo is questionable because given my read of villian's hand ranges, he will only push with a boat and I will be forced to call. I can't see him calling a reraise on the turn with an ace (villian def. reraises pf with ak) and calling a value bet on the river.
If he had A2 he got counterfitted
A4 filled up
A5 is one hand he may call
As I said earlier, villian pushes a 3 prob. 90+% of the time.

3)A small bet of say 1500-2000: Something to consider?
He may call with any hand I beat getting 4.5 to 1
He will push with any boat putting me in a tough spot
He may push (possible but not that high of a percentage) with a missed flush draw, etc. putting me in a tough spot

4) check behind since most likely villian will fold any hand I beat and of course could jeopardize my stack if he filled up (very possible given villian's tendencies)
Of course, I lose some value against the hands I beat and he calls (even though I think in this case there aren't that many hands)

I decided to check riv but I still don't know what the best ev play would be.

Villian didn't show but he mentioned hearts

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Please discuss the PF raise in MP with 3-6s. You hit the perfect flop for your hand and made $3700. Do you think you are going to hit a good flop 1 out of 10 times? You are only getting called by better hands that will usually have position on you. If there is a high flop the calling station may keep calling. If there is a low flop he will think you missed and call you down with a mid PP.
I would rather call a PF raise with position with 3-6s. Then you can put him to the test but I am not playing 3-6s for a raise much less raising with it.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Can I,

thanks for bringing me to that attention-when it was folded to me I quickly glanced at my hand chart cheat sheet making sure nobody else saw at the table and thought it said to raise not fold [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I will make sure in the future I don't raise this sort of hand in this spot the 10% or so in the future

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can I,

thanks for bringing me to that attention-when it was folded to me I quickly glanced at my hand chart cheat sheet making sure nobody else saw at the table and thought it said to raise not fold [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I will make sure in the future I don't raise this sort of hand in this spot the 10% or so in the future

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen, all sarcasm aside....you played a marginal hand that other than the occasional c-bet or extended bluff only makes money for you when you extract lots of chips when you hit your miracle flops (trips, house, flush, straight, etc.). To not capitalize on a miracle board for such a marginal hand makes such a hand not worth playing. The fact that you checked just shows further why you shouldn't be playing these hands-the second they're no longer the nuts you freeze up afraid to play with deep stacks. If you're not willing to be aggressive with the nuts and make value bets when the nuts turns to the non-nuts, you shouldn't trust yourself enough to play these hands to make sarcastic comments to people mocking you for not ditching these hands preflop.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

dude wtf quit ragging on him, checking behind is NOT that bad. PS, as played I bet 3600 on the river.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

No, it IS that bad.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
dude wtf quit ragging on him, checking behind is NOT that bad. PS, as played I bet 3600 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

no one is ragging on anything.

the point, which i think foxwoodsfiend made pretty well, is all about HOW you are going to play the hand.

in a bubble, checking behind with 36s when there are 4 to a straight and a paired board is not that bad.

however, if you are going to raise 36s and flop a monstrous hand, playing it this passively and not making strong value bets is criminal. that's not to say playing more conservatively isn't all right, but then you should not not not be raising 36s.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

I am not mocking anyone. I don't play that way and would like a discussion of the thought process from someone who does. Similar to the original Samelous post.
I am the TAG or Weak/Tight that goes broke with TPTK.

Re: 50/100 Commerce River Decision
 

Diablo,

Sometimes you have to change gears.