Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

Here's my case.

The reason to do this is to build a pot. I would plan on doing this as an alternative to calling when I will be at an advantage to those limpers with odds to play post flop with a large pot, for example:

1. I have a great position, dealer or cut off, and can play much more precisely
2. I have a hand which does well in big pots, suited connectors, pocket pairs (Im giving myself odds for a set with the minraise, and this inflated pot will help me get paid off when I hit the set)

So, how does it work to my advantage if they have odds to call? surely then their call is profitable and my raise not. This reasoning neglects the fact that they are making fundemental theroum of poker mistakes by calling in the first place. If they'd have known I was going to raise, ie. if they are after me to act and have to play 2*BB to see the flop, many would have folded.. this makes their call of my raise good, but their limp before my raise unprofitable. ,but how could they know?

It might get even more unprofitable for them being dragged into a multiway pot now where I have better position and better cards suited to a large pot.

Im going to start this as an experiment and see how it goes. In the meantime, does anyone have any arguments that make my reasoning bad?

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

1) It is a freaking annoying nuisance and wastes everybody's time.

2) If you have good cards you want to charge people to stick around and outdraw you, not give them correct odds. Basic poker.

3) If you have bad cards you want them to go away.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

FWIW, I've seen lags use the minraise to their advantage.

They'll basically minraise everytime someone raises, and they cue in on whether to be aggressive or not on the next street by whether they get re-raised. It's obviously an exploitable strategy, but I've seen it work at some tables.

Of course these same lags will let themselves get stacked w/ an overpair if you keep minraising back at them [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

LAGS only got a small stack left, but that's because I just stacked him a few hands back, and he's tilted some of his rebuy away already.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $16.58
UTG+1: $37.79
CO: $62
Button: $100.03
SB: $39.45
keikiwai: $46.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) keikiwai is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">keikiwai raises to $0.75</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($2.75, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">keikiwai bets $3</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $6</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">keikiwai raises to $9</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises all-in $9.58</font>, keikiwai calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($33.91, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $33.91)


River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($33.91, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $33.91)


Results:
Final pot: $33.91
<font color="#ffffff">keikiwai shows Ah Ad </font>
<font color="#ffffff">UTG doesn't show 6s Qh </font>

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

1. doesnt matter

2. they have odds, but my whole point was they're still, pre flop, paying 2*bb on a hand they wouldn't have limped with if they had to pay 2*bb all at once to do. they're being "dragged in", which makes their first call a mistake.

3. I wouldnt do it with bad cards, I'd do it with cards that play well in a big pot.

To me, given that everyone who limps now calls (as they have odds), its effectively doubling the blinds at my will when I have an advantage. Raising a pot size doesn't have this effect.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

keikiwai thanks, although I'm talking exclusively about pre-flop.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

I love minraisers preflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($114.84)
UTG ($83.62)
MP ($85)
CO ($99.90)
Hero ($98.50)
SB ($69.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $97.50 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $108.50

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

OP: here is the reason why your OP logic doesnt work. a raise with a hand that does well in multiway pot is a very important weapon in limit hold em. this is because there is a betting limit, which means that you dont have all that much time to get your opponents to get their money in. another result of the betting limit is that if the pot is too small to warrent a call from them (from their perspective-- it depends on the cards they have at the time). Thus a PF raise makes the pot bigger, and lets you price yourself (or them) into the pot when you get a favorable flop.

In NLHE, however, we have a concept known as implied odds. if you hit a flop you like, you have access to their entire stack already, its not as important to make the pot big enough to hook them. you hook by betting an amount you think they will call.

Plus at NLHE players sit with 100 bet stacks, so the difference between a 5 way 5 bet stack and a 5 way 10 bet stack is not very significant.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

I love minraisers postflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
keikiwai: $24.65
UTG+1: $39.98
CO: $38.14
Button: $62.35
SB: $101.13
BB: $38.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) keikiwai is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
keikiwai calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $1.1</font>, 4 folds, keikiwai calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($2.55, 2 players)
keikiwai checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $2.45</font>, <font color="#cc0000">keikiwai raises to $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $9.56</font>, <font color="#cc0000">keikiwai raises all-in $17.55</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($49.65, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $49.65)


River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($49.65, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $49.65)


Results:
Final pot: $49.65
<font color="#ffffff">UTG+1 shows Ad Jd </font>
<font color="#ffffff">keikiwai shows Qh Js </font>

Yes it's one screwed up open limp / call on my part, but my implied odds were huge [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

you must love variance..

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
you must love variance..

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't, then you do not understand it.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I love minraisers preflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($114.84)
UTG ($83.62)
MP ($85)
CO ($99.90)
Hero ($98.50)
SB ($69.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $97.50 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $108.50

[/ QUOTE ]

this move is really bad.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

My thinking is... its a tell. if you more than min raise people are going to know you like your hand less. if you min raise people are going to know you want to build a pot. a lot will still call like idiots but to an observant player its a tell.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking is... its a tell. if you more than min raise people are going to know you like your hand less. if you min raise people are going to know you want to build a pot. a lot will still call like idiots but to an observant player its a tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not serious are you? People min-raise with absolute trash sometimes, and sometimes w/ strong hands. You have to put it into your notes which villain does which, because (at least at 25NL) they're both prevalent.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love minraisers preflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($114.84)
UTG ($83.62)
MP ($85)
CO ($99.90)
Hero ($98.50)
SB ($69.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $97.50 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $108.50

[/ QUOTE ]

this move is really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love minraisers preflop. Because sometimes I can do this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($114.84)
UTG ($83.62)
MP ($85)
CO ($99.90)
Hero ($98.50)
SB ($69.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $2</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero calls $97.50 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $108.50

[/ QUOTE ]

this move is really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

so when its limped to you in the bb, do you open push?

yeah I love pot committing opponents with only a 1 bb investment.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

Many top tournament players use the min-raise preflop effectively (Helmuth, Goehring, others, most of the small ball LAG types use small raises preflop). Against tight+passive+bad typical live tournament players it's a very strong weapon, because they will play very predictably against any raise preflop and often fold the pot to a cbet, and you're risking the minimum to steal the blinds and antes. If someone is going to fold the blinds to a min raise, or let you take the lead in the hand just because you're min raising and min betting, then min betting is awesome. Online against crazy donks and calling stations and LAGs I don't think it really has much value.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

As soon as someone figures out that you're doing this with small pairs and suited connectors then they will re-pot it PF and bet the pot on nearly any flop with any two. You'll fold because you usually you miss. If you do hit then you're probably not going to get paid since villain re-raised you PF with trash. Villain will just shut down if he gets called on the flop since he knows that you hit the flop hard.

Min-raising PF in the manner you're describing is bad because you're representing a weak hand and asking to be isolated by a good player. Have fun with that.

mj

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP: here is the reason why your OP logic doesnt work. a raise with a hand that does well in multiway pot is a very important weapon in limit hold em. this is because there is a betting limit, which means that you dont have all that much time to get your opponents to get their money in. another result of the betting limit is that if the pot is too small to warrent a call from them (from their perspective-- it depends on the cards they have at the time). Thus a PF raise makes the pot bigger, and lets you price yourself (or them) into the pot when you get a favorable flop.

In NLHE, however, we have a concept known as implied odds. if you hit a flop you like, you have access to their entire stack already, its not as important to make the pot big enough to hook them. you hook by betting an amount you think they will call.

Plus at NLHE players sit with 100 bet stacks, so the difference between a 5 way 5 bet stack and a 5 way 10 bet stack is not very significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this point, but the number of times you hit a flop compared to the number of times you take an opponent's whole stack is so low, I think the double sized pot is more than a minor change to profitable decisions you make post flop.

The idea of this minraise is to magnify your postflop decision profits because you're putting yourself at an advantage against hands that simply meet only limping criteria; you're imprvong your range while not improving theirs (as they have odds, whatever they called before theyre calling again)

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
The idea of this minraise is to magnify your postflop decision profits because you're putting yourself at an advantage against hands that simply meet only limping criteria; you're imprvong your range while not improving theirs (as they have odds, whatever they called before theyre calling again)

[/ QUOTE ]

As cbloom pointed out, the real advantages of the min-bet are information and control vs. predictable opponents.

Like I said in one of my previous responses, I've seen LAGs do this. They min-bet to test the waters and then on the next street they pot or 2X pot. It's very effective if no-on plays back at you.... which will eventually happen and many of these LAGs know how to bluff but not how to fold.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]


so when its limped to you in the bb, do you open push?

[/ QUOTE ]

apples and oranges.

[ QUOTE ]
yeah I love pot committing opponents with only a 1 bb investment.

[/ QUOTE ]

what?

75% of the time I take down 11 bb's uncontested. If called, 5% of the time I am an 80-20 dog, which is cancelled out by the 5% of the time I'll be called and am an 80-20 fave. The other 15% of the time I am going to be at worst a 55-45 fave, with probably a few more 80-20 faves.

4 players have shown me their hand strength, 3 of them twice. One donk has minraised from the SB a field of limpers, not a show of strength. 11bb's is a pot worth grabbing, IMO. Knowing I miss my set 6/7, it's a good place to take it down. I had TT btw.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

oh, you are doing it with a pocket pair.

you know, Xd, Xh can be construed as any 2.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. doesnt matter

[/ QUOTE ]

Does to me.

[ QUOTE ]
2. they have odds, but my whole point was they're still, pre flop, paying 2*bb on a hand they wouldn't have limped with if they had to pay 2*bb all at once to do. they're being "dragged in", which makes their first call a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is like minbetting or minraising into someone with a flush draw and saying that it's OK because you know they'll call.

[ QUOTE ]
3. I wouldnt do it with bad cards, I'd do it with cards that play well in a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to define your hand.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

"This is like minbetting or minraising into someone with a flush draw and saying that it's OK because you know they'll call."

it's like then calling with odds, and then someone behind them raising. both calls individually are good as they have odds, but in hidsignt, the first was a mistake because he doesn't know there's going to be a raise behind.

overall, the min raise means the draw has paid too much, but there's nothing he can do about it.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"This is like minbetting or minraising into someone with a flush draw and saying that it's OK because you know they'll call."

it's like then calling with odds, and then someone behind them raising. both calls individually are good as they have odds, but in hidsignt, the first was a mistake because he doesn't know there's going to be a raise behind.

overall, the min raise means the draw has paid too much, but there's nothing he can do about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the second raiser still made an error. Do you see why? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"This is like minbetting or minraising into someone with a flush draw and saying that it's OK because you know they'll call."

it's like then calling with odds, and then someone behind them raising. both calls individually are good as they have odds, but in hidsignt, the first was a mistake because he doesn't know there's going to be a raise behind.

overall, the min raise means the draw has paid too much, but there's nothing he can do about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

we aren't playing limit poker here. this is why limping drawing hands and even small pocket pairs are rarely correct in limit.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"This is like minbetting or minraising into someone with a flush draw and saying that it's OK because you know they'll call."

it's like then calling with odds, and then someone behind them raising. both calls individually are good as they have odds, but in hidsignt, the first was a mistake because he doesn't know there's going to be a raise behind.

overall, the min raise means the draw has paid too much, but there's nothing he can do about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the second raiser still made an error. Do you see why? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

lol... im intrigued
Ill give it some thought, ..

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

I think as an every time all the time strategy it's no good. It will get eaten alive by somebody paying attention (although how many low limit players are paying THAT much attention). But if on the button (not the cutoff as the button will likely play this kind of hand with any 2 because of the pot) it may allow you to see 4th street for free which could be a big benefit when you don't flop a big hand/draw. But I think as a once or twice a session, to mix things up, and keep your opponents in a "gambling" mood it would be an effective way to do this that doesn't risk much else. But doing it often will likely hurt your ability to pick up pots by betting which I think is more important in NL. It's a great Limit Technique that doesn't really transfer to NL quite as well

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

The point I think of the min-raise PRE-FLOP is only to grow the pot, not b/c opponents are making a "mistake" by calling 2 bbs instead of one. That's limit thinking and doesn't belong here. Post-flop min-raises are retarded unless it's at the river.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3. I wouldnt do it with bad cards, I'd do it with cards that play well in a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Way to define your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are my types of hands that do well in a big pot, i.e., any low pp, suited connectors, suited aces. This range is quite large and opponents may not know which you have when the board comes with a straight and a flush draw.

That said, I have never min-raised pre-flop so I don't really know if this is a profitable play against certain opponents or not. I think it could be quite profitable against passive players that will never play back at a pf min-raise.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OP: here is the reason why your OP logic doesnt work. a raise with a hand that does well in multiway pot is a very important weapon in limit hold em. this is because there is a betting limit, which means that you dont have all that much time to get your opponents to get their money in. another result of the betting limit is that if the pot is too small to warrent a call from them (from their perspective-- it depends on the cards they have at the time). Thus a PF raise makes the pot bigger, and lets you price yourself (or them) into the pot when you get a favorable flop.

In NLHE, however, we have a concept known as implied odds. if you hit a flop you like, you have access to their entire stack already, its not as important to make the pot big enough to hook them. you hook by betting an amount you think they will call.

Plus at NLHE players sit with 100 bet stacks, so the difference between a 5 way 5 bet stack and a 5 way 10 bet stack is not very significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this point, but the number of times you hit a flop compared to the number of times you take an opponent's whole stack is so low, I think the double sized pot is more than a minor change to profitable decisions you make post flop.

The idea of this minraise is to magnify your postflop decision profits because you're putting yourself at an advantage against hands that simply meet only limping criteria; you're imprvong your range while not improving theirs (as they have odds, whatever they called before theyre calling again)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a single word of this makes sense to me. Who cares if you increase the pot by 1 bet for each limper? who reason you limp is because you hope to stack an unobservant opponent. the argument of "min-raise so that the times you dont stack someone, you get double the money" is bad. the value added to your total EV for limping hands like this comes almost entirely from stacking, taking the pot uncontested is almost irrelevant.

Let me also add that if you are doing this with all your hands that you arent putting in normal-person raises with, you are playing a weird version of twice the size game you should be playing (50nl compared to 25nl). while not ENTIRELY the same thing, minraising as a standard play like you describe with F you up when you look at your varience.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

Ill reply and think later, but with regards the the "define your hand", IMO the min raise is an excellent red herring to throw thinking opponents.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

stop argueing with him. Your going to make everyone think its bad to minraise preflop with [censored] cards. Its CLEARLY a good move :P

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

I think there is a big problem here. Hands like suited connectors are much more trap hands in a limped family pot in NL. In limit this is no problem, because if you make a really good second best hand (like the bottom of a straight or trips no kicker or something) you're losses will be capped. In no limit, it is a much better hand to play short-handed in a raised pot, because when you hit your hand 1)you will be pretty sure it is good) 2)you actually have implied odds because someone else more likely has a big hand.

The better way to play these type of hands on the button is to raise with them. If the whole table will call your raise, then I guess you can just call, but be careful about hands like bottom 2 pair or the like (ie Doyle's don't go broke in a limped pot). Also, this is no-limit not limit. An extra 8BBs in the pot is almost meaningless, as this makes the pot the size of a raised pot with one caller.

IMO, this doesn't hurt you a huge amount, but it certainly doesn't help. If you want a bigger pot, play at the next limit up.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

This does NOT work well at an aggressive table, or probably with observant opponents. However, I think there are lots of opponents we can exploit with pot building bets.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]They won't cold call 4BB+1 in error. They will call 2BB and then another 1-2BB from you in LP. They are still just as likely to fold to a psb on the flop. In fact more so because the bet is a much larger percentage of their stack and MORE THAN THEY ARE USED TO. When you fire the second barrel either with or without the goods, these weak players are extremely uncomfortable. Scared uncomfortable money is DEAD MONEY.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Absolutely this is some weird kind of game that is twice as expensive. It's even worse by the turn and river where it is multiplied. Granted I don't have the game or the nads to pull this crap at 100NL+... but the nano fish will happily pay double or triple and still see almost every flop. We have position, a hand, and the ability to play post-flop. They are uncomfortable, out of position, and praying for a miracle.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]The point is not minraising. The point is finding the threshold of pain for our opponents. Maybe it is 2BB maybe 4BB. At some point they are making an optimally large mistake that we can capitalize on later. When we have nice deep stacks the earlier we can get them committed the easier it is to get our stacks in.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Dump the minraise. Look for the largest error you can induce preflop. We're looking for something to leverage later in the hand when our edge is highest. You want action when you hit a hand. Commit them early and you have something to work with. You can still control pot-size on later streets if necessary.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]The key is understanding your edge and how it relates to your opponents. If you are going to be outplayed, wtf are you doing building pots with speculative hands? And if you aren't building on both speculative and strong... you are giving away information to observants. I would expect an expert to be able to drop down a couple levels and exploit the hell out of most of us on the early streets. They are going to bump it, or pound it, early and outplay you for larger pots than you are used to every time.

I'm over the semantics. I want optimal. Typically that is more than a minraise down here. Building big pots is certainly a viable strategy. That is always going to involve getting as much money in there early as we can.

Just two bits. Lots of ways to skin a donk at NL, imho.

Mike

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

I didn't read your post and didn't read this thread.

min raising is cool. its the new b3b.

ness

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a big problem here. Hands like suited connectors are much more trap hands in a limped family pot in NL. In limit this is no problem, because if you make a really good second best hand (like the bottom of a straight or trips no kicker or something) you're losses will be capped. In no limit, it is a much better hand to play short-handed in a raised pot, because when you hit your hand 1)you will be pretty sure it is good) 2)you actually have implied odds because someone else more likely has a big hand.

The better way to play these type of hands on the button is to raise with them. If the whole table will call your raise, then I guess you can just call, but be careful about hands like bottom 2 pair or the like (ie Doyle's don't go broke in a limped pot). Also, this is no-limit not limit. An extra 8BBs in the pot is almost meaningless, as this makes the pot the size of a raised pot with one caller.

IMO, this doesn't hurt you a huge amount, but it certainly doesn't help. If you want a bigger pot, play at the next limit up.

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With the limit up, Im playing a bigger pot every hand. This strategy increases the pot only when it is in my interests.

I didn't realise suited connectors were trap hands. Either they make a big hand and win a big pot, or miss and lose a small one. It's not like you'll be comparing kickers often or drawing dead...

If everyone agrees on the fact that, by min raising, I am increasing a pot size before the flop WITHOUT improving my opponents' hand ranges, why does this not give me an advantage post flop? It's basically putting money in with the edge, and position, and as a bonus not worrying if only better hands call - your raising range beats their limping one; under these circumstances, the min-raise increases your pot equity.

sorry, read more replies later

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

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keikiwai thanks, although I'm talking exclusively about pre-flop.

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i should have read this thread.

minraising preflop is pretty stupid. occasionally, i do it from the bb when 230498 people limp--spite. plus, it makes you look like a real donkey.

ness

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

"minraising preflop is pretty stupid"

please do me the respect of responding to the arguments

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

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"minraising preflop is pretty stupid"

please do me the respect of responding to the arguments

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fair enough. i'll read it now.

Re: Minraising pre flop. WHY I don\'t think it\'s all-that-bad!
 

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"minraising preflop is pretty stupid"

please do me the respect of responding to the arguments

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you don't make a very strong case.

if you minraise preflop in this situation often, many players will just start to make all types of plays at you.

you will win against the limpers immediately often and even more on the flop when you c-bet...the min raise definitely doesn't have this effect.

a normal size raise will build a pot--even better than a minraise!

you will have even less idea where you are against the fishes.