Two turn plays after raised on flop

knicknut · #1 01-07-2006, 06:13 PM

Two plays, both out of position with decent holdings. Hand reading could figure you're dominated and drawing to 2, 3 outs, or could be falling prey to a semibluff. I'll include results and what I did later.

MP2 is sLAA (32/8/2.5), UTG is a fish (39/2/1.0)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 4 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 raises, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero ???

In second, CO is 23/4/3

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, CO raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero ???

bobhalford · #2 01-07-2006, 06:21 PM

Hand 1 - I might 3 bet the flop with this guy. He probably would have raised preflop with a better ace. You've got the fish in there too to pad the pot for you. The way you played it, I would donk the turn.

Hand 2 - I'd 3-bet the flop here. If we're going to give him credit for the K we might as well fold to the flop raise. If he calls your 3-bet, I would bet/fold the turn. We've announced that we have at least a K, and if he can beat that, all the best to him.

RyanCMU · #3 01-07-2006, 06:31 PM

hand 1: 3bet the flop lead the turn. They way this played out Im just check/calling the turn.

hand 2: Three bet the flop call if he caps, check/fold the turn unimproved. The way this hand played out im check/calling the turn.

By not showing enough agression on the earlier streets in these two examples you are making the hands more difficult to play on later streets. When out of posistion in pots where the quality of my hand is speculative I prefer to be agressive with my hand and define it early, I feel it makes the later streets easier to play.

C-Dog · #4 01-07-2006, 07:29 PM

I think call and donk the turn is good in both places. Too many people raise their flush draws here for you to be laying down. Hell I raise my flush draw in most of these spots.

C-Dog

knicknut · #5 01-07-2006, 07:39 PM

Interesting that I considered the turn to be the more questionable street. I guess a really bad run lately has made me a bit more afraid of domination and being beat on the flop. (My flop aggression is still close to 4, though.)

My thought in hand 1 is that he either (a) is on a flush draw and is raising for a free card, or (b) has me dominated (although good point, he'd probably raise with AT+ with his stats, although ATo and AJo are possible with his 8PFR and a limper in front). Given the way I read it, I figured bet into him (to avoid a free card if (a)), and then fold if he raises again (telling me he has (b)).

Hand 2 - I think four SB are a lot to throw in if I'm drawing to 2 outs, especially if I'm going to check/fold the turn, where he might semibluff with ace high. Caller doesn't raise much, so might have KQ, KJs, KTs, KJ. I checked/folded.

Would love some more points of view, though.

Harv72b · #6 01-08-2006, 01:29 AM

Hand 1: Raise preflop. A9o is well ahead of both players' limping range. Having failed to do that, 3-bet the flop. MP2 will be raising with a worse ace, a flush draw, or an OESD very often here, especially given his aggressive nature. And he will call the 3-bet and a turn bet with any of those holdings, so no use letting him off lightly.

Hand 2: I hate to do it, but I think we can check/fold here...the pot is just too small to justify a calldown in hopes that he's holding a flush draw or smaller PP, at least without having observed this opponent raise the flop and bet the turn with similar holdings. You could also bet/fold, I suppose, although that just looks retarded to the other players at the table.

hero · #7 01-08-2006, 02:29 AM

i think harv nailed it pretty well but ill add my thoughts. hand 1 has some promise to it, most likely well ahead given the brick on the turn, if mp2's such a slight lag i figure he's isolate or raise for fun a hand like AT, even ATo- so we're ahead and the brick says donk the turn out.
hand 2 given the board's texture villian would be right to try either or two lines, you check, he bets 100% of the time, you bet, he raises with a-high/k/4/ any pocket pair incl'd 77+ since you didnt 3-bet the flop. any CO with a 23/4/3 would raise pf with KJs+ and not play a 4 except maybe A4s, i feel like we're just never knowing if we're ahead and paying it off to find out isnt a smart/viable option-
?- interested in how many raise pf in hand 1 with A9o (a good hand esp. 3-way vs. 2 limps with reads) but in the bb OOP - automatic in MP3/CO/BTN but im not doing this now and need to nut up and start being more aggressive -
so i'm ahead but need help in situations like raise pf, both call, flops Q76r and i con't bet/get raised, hero's action? thx A/
Edit: to say that pushing edges re: pre-flop equity is different then both decisions on later streets and that being weak-tight doesnt pay/

SlyGuy · #8 01-08-2006, 02:47 AM

HAnd 1 I think you are ahead often here. MP2 is a spot to limp suited aces which you will often outkick. Most of the time I call down there. If it looks like a free card play or the vilailn is known to make that play i'll donk the turn when the heart or straight misses on the turn.

Hand 2 looks like a K to me. He's not overly aggressive. Seeing as you called the raise you might just call down. I don't think you are good here that often with only 1 draw out there. Leading the turn and folding to a raise might be better than calling down if that was your decision.