B&M 5-10 do I understand the SSHE concepts right

argybargy2002 · #1 10-26-2006, 10:55 AM

Table is full of loose passives, with one aggressive player to my right. I am on mega tilt, which explains why I am in the hand to begin with. Therefore please ignore the obvious preflop mistake (imagine I was a poster in the CO)However I think I played this correctly postflop but I got a lot of raised eyebrows.

Hero in CO with T2s (diamonds)

3 limps, I call, Button raises, SB and BB call, limpers and I call.

Flop (12sb) 345r with one diamond.

All check to button who bets, 3 callers, I raise.

My rationale here is that I have an oesd and a backdoor flush draw so I have about 9 outs, plus maybe 1 for my T giving me lots of equity.

This is clearly not a free card manouevre as the pfr is after me. Is this a move you guys would do or is it an example of me steaming?

jrz1972 · #2 10-26-2006, 11:36 AM

Looks good to me. Standard value-raise.

SeaEagle · #3 10-26-2006, 11:40 AM

You played it great.

You have more than 20% equity in the hand so your raise is a value raise. For what it's worth, you also get some free card value out of this. Your raise makes the 3 players in front of you more likely to check. The PFR will check the turn through a lot because he has two overs and is happy to see a free river or he he's got a middling hand and doesn't want to bet your hand for you.

KurtSF · #4 10-26-2006, 11:46 AM

No, I call.

You have the concept right. Letting everyone call around before you c/r infront if the orriginal raiser and make everyone call one more. But I want more eauity than this to make this play. Like OESD + FD (if there were 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the flop), or made stright (A2 or 67), or top pair and the good end of the straight (56), or something like that.

In this case I think its an easy call, as you certainly have odds to draw, but I don't think you have enough equity to raise. If you know for certain that you won't be 3-bet anywhere and that everyone will come along, then maybe. You have no fold equity because you have no hand, and if anyone drops out their equity goes to someone other than you.

$0.02

KurtSF · #5 10-26-2006, 11:48 AM

Seems I may have the concept wrong.

I only count like 7 outs here. You certainly can't give the four 6's full value. Not with 6 villians. The four A's are probably good, but may verry well split the pot. Weak backdoor flushdraw... one out. Maybe 1 or 1.5 for the three T's. I don't see more than 6 or 7 full outs here, and your hand is worthless without hitting them. I don't see the equity y'all are seeing.

Am I wrong?

Ricks · #6 10-26-2006, 11:56 AM

You are over-counting your outs.

You have to subtract outs for your OESD because:

1) One of the cards is to the idiot end of the str8.
2) Neither of the cards gives you the nut str8.
3) Only one card in your hand is being used which makes it more likely that you will have to split the pot.

Your BDFD is to the 5th nut flush so I would not give it a full out.

Your T may be worth one out but, against 5 opponents, that would not give me great comfort.

I think the whole hand is worth around 7 outs which would still have enough equity to raise.

Edit: fixed spelling

KurtSF · #7 10-26-2006, 12:11 PM

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I think the whole hand is worth around 7 outs which would still have enough equity to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got maths on this? My gut says no. I'd love to be proven wrong.

JojoDiego · #8 10-26-2006, 12:24 PM

I think the flop c/r is iffy because the draw is dirty.

What about betting into the PFR to possibly clean up the T, BDFD and straight outs? The pot's already big--should we try to maximize our chance of winning it?

argybargy2002 · #9 10-26-2006, 12:30 PM

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What about betting into the PFR to possibly clean up the T, BDFD and straight outs? The pot's already big--should we try to maximize our chance of winning it?

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Interesting. I was thinking that one reason the checkraise may be a little iffy because the pfr might 3 bet and knock a few people out, decreasing my win if I catch. However from what you are saying this can be a benefit as well.

Is a $60 pot in 5-10 one that I should focus on winning in the way you suggest?

SeaEagle · #10 10-26-2006, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Got maths on this? My gut says no. I'd love to be proven wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
With 5 players in, you'll need to win this pot more than 20% of the time to make the raise +EV. Since hero knows he's going to see the river, he needs about 5 outs to justify the raise on pure equity.

There is a chance that the PFR will 3 bet and people will fold, hurting hero's equity, but this is roughly balanced by the increased chance that the turn will get checked around.

FWIW, I give hero about 6 outs here. 3.5 for the A's which are almost always good; 1.5 for the BDFD; 1 for the 6's which have RIO due to killing the action when ahead and paying off when behind.