Autopush, right?

[mack848]

Just checking.

Party $25 full

Villains are standard SLPassives. Effective stacks are $25


Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

2 MP limps, SB completes, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 MP caller

Flop is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets $3, Villain raises to $7, Hero ?

[BadMoon]

We probably have very little fold equity here. Any reads on villain? He made a small raise of your cbet, which could mean a lot of things: set, str8, 2pair, worse fd, TP, small overpair. You didn't mention which MP called, the first limper or second. The second limper generally has a wider range of hands. Since we have pretty good equity against a wide range, I push and take note of what he shows down.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
We probably have very little fold equity here. Any reads on villain? He made a small raise of your cbet, which could mean a lot of things: set, str8, 2pair, worse fd, TP, small overpair. You didn't mention which MP called, the first limper or second. The second limper generally has a wider range of hands. Since we have pretty good equity against a wide range, I push and take note of what he shows down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry dude but this is bad advice. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that we have good equity versus his range, because we don't. His range really isn't as wide as you think - he's raised us here which without reads basically ALWAYS means 2pr+. At higher levels particularly on this board this can be done with some kind of draw, but its pretty unlikely at 25nl. Our hero currently has ace high, no showdown value and 9 outs to improve (given that another ace may still put us behind two pair). Here's what pokerstove says...


Board: 5s 8s 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 33.6573 % 32.76% 00.90% { AsJs }
Hand 2: 66.3427 % 65.44% 00.90% { 88, 66-55, Ad8d, Ks4s, 86s-85s, 86o-85o }

That range is: Sets, two pairs, and a lower flush thrown in for optimism, as well as a weak TPTK holding. As you can see we are about 2:1 against to win here with two cards to come - not brilliant. Consider also that we have next to no FE, and this makes it a pretty easy fold.

It might be thin +EV to flat call here but I'm getting away. As a general rule with pushing draws, IMO it is best to have a combination draw or have a piece of the board before you push. Naked FD's are definitely -EV to be pushing with no FE.

[mack848]

Thanks Ama

My thinking when this happened was, initially, that I had 9-15 outs and that, given the dead money, it could well be a push.

After a little thought, I folded. My reasoning was that I had almost no fold equity vs. hands thats that are usually played this way - 2pair+ and only 9 outs.

Coming from Limit, I still find pushing a difficult thing to do and often 'bottle out' and call before I time out, when callng is probably the worst option. I really have not yet sorted out in my mind where a hand crosses the line between a fold or call and a push. Post flop raises at NL$25 full are soo rarely bluffs or draws that FE is often extremely small and I usually feel that I need 13 outs or more before pushing.

[ama0330]

Good fold.

Generally if I am going to push on a draw I need to make sure that the draw is strong enough to survive up against at least two pair. This usually means a hand that, unimproved, will STILL have showdown value. Had you an ace on the board in your hand, it becomes quite an easy push because even against two pair type holdings you can win with a counterfeit pair on the board.

I would prefer that you had a healthy scepticism as to getting your stack in the middle as opposed to pushing everything all over the place, as it is rarely correct to commit your stack to an ace high holding. You will see in the high stakes forums that many many holdings are pushed in the middle even though it seems to be marginal at best, but it is incorrect to assume that because it works up there it works down here. There are many sublevels of thinking involved in 200nl+ that don't concern us.

In short, save your pushes for when you've got something solid.

[SABR42]

Fold to the flop raise?

Is that a joke?

If you think you have zero FE, then just call the raise and try to stack him on a spade turn. His tiny flop raise is giving you good implied odds.

[kslghost]

...Nut flush draw with two overs... Folded for 4 dollars into a 13/14 dollar pot... This is horrible.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
...Nut flush draw with two overs... Folded for 4 dollars into a 13/14 dollar pot... This is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think you have two overs?

[SABR42]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...Nut flush draw with two overs... Folded for 4 dollars into a 13/14 dollar pot... This is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think you have two overs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero's overcard outs obviously aren't good 100% of the time, but it's silly to assume that they're good 0% of the time. They're obviously worth something.

This is an EASY flop call. Villain mini-raised the flop and you have the NUT draw. Folding is absurd.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to the flop raise?

Is that a joke?

If you think you have zero FE, then just call the raise and try to stack him on a spade turn. His tiny flop raise is giving you good implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
...Nut flush draw with two overs... Folded for 4 dollars into a 13/14 dollar pot... This is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot = $14, and its $4 to play giving immediate odds of 3.5:1. With one card to come we have no more than 9 outs needing 4:1 to hit one of our spades, therefore a call here is -EV.

People - we DON'T have two overs. Our ace is dead!