Suicide

[Lestat]

I understand Christians having a problem with it, since their belief is that no one has a right to determine who dies or when they die other than God. But if you are not bogged down by such beliefs, is there anything inherently wrong with suicide?

Death does not scare me, but I admit that the process of dying does. I don't want to die in a bed of old age or disease. I prefer to go out on my own terms. A free fall, failed parachute, perishing at 29,000 ft on Mount Everest, etc.

This might sound like frivelous banter, but I'm very serious about it. If told I only have 6 months to live, I don't want to wait around for death, but instead, seek it out. Do I have this right? Can anyone point out a moral problem as long as I don't hurt anyone else?

And even if you don't feel so adventurous, what about assisted suicide? If someone wants to go out a little earlier and avoid a lot of suffering, what is so wrong with that?

[benkahuna]

Tim Leary's book, Death and Dying explores just this issue in very eloquent form. I pretty much agree with you. I feel my life is my own and thus I should be able to do with it what the hell I want. If my standard of living drops below a certain point with no reasonable expectation of improvement, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to off myself in the most exciting way possible. Go out with a bang, if you will.

[hmkpoker]

I don't see a problem.

[behemoth2006]

I dont have a problem with it, unless it will adversely effect your family members, which I think you qualified already.

Personally, the only qualification I wish to have about dying is that I do it fulfilled. Once that's taken care of, I just hope it doesn't really hurt.

Not to mention that I hope Im wrong about afterlife.

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
And even if you don't feel so adventurous, what about assisted suicide? If someone wants to go out a little earlier and avoid a lot of suffering, what is so wrong with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing wrong with it, moreover it is the right thing to do.

[luckyme]

I suspect I chose how I'll die when I ordered this quarter pounder with cheese.

luckyme

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
But if you are not bogged down by such beliefs

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not bogged down at all. I just believe God's teachings that life is a prescious gift that should be protected from natural conception to natural death. And the courageious example of those struggling as best and cheerfully as they can with terminal illnesses should show others in good health but who are depressed to the point of considering suicide, that life is worth living and fighting for, not just for oneself, but also for others. That last 6 months you talk about, while a trial for you, might mean a lot to your loved ones. And even to you if you were receptive to God's grace.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
This might sound like frivelous banter, but I'm very serious about it. If told I only have 6 months to live, I don't want to wait around for death, but instead, seek it out. Do I have this right? Can anyone point out a moral problem as long as I don't hurt anyone else?


[/ QUOTE ]

Is suicide against the law where you live? Some believe you have a moral obligation to obey the laws of the state.

Stu

[Lestat]

I'm not sure, but if suicide IS against he law, why should it be? I see no reason for it, but maybe I'm overlooking things.

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
I just believe God's teachings that life is a prescious gift that should be protected from natural conception to natural death.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't God's followers done more than their fair share of quite unnatural life ending over the years. The only difference is that the victims of the crusades, salem witch trials, etc. did not volunteer for their lifes to be ended.

[BluffTHIS!]

On a practical note, if your life insurance policy is important to the financial welfare of your loved ones after you are gone, they kiss that goodbye when you off yourself.

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This might sound like frivelous banter, but I'm very serious about it. If told I only have 6 months to live, I don't want to wait around for death, but instead, seek it out. Do I have this right? Can anyone point out a moral problem as long as I don't hurt anyone else?


[/ QUOTE ]

Is suicide against the law where you live? Some believe you have a moral obligation to obey the laws of the state.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, some believe that rabbit's feet give good luck.

If the law is morally wrong then we are not morally obligated to follow it.

[Lestat]

I don't know... I had to watch my father die a slow terrible death. I'm no better off having done so, I can assure you that. I don't think anyone else was either. And that's a big part of why I bring this up. I don't want my children to see me like that. I wouldn't want to put them through it. It's almost a worse agony for the loved ones (at least I think so).

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure, but if suicide IS against he law, why should it be? I see no reason for it, but maybe I'm overlooking things.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people who have attempted suicide but were stopped by outside intervention are later very thankful they were stopped.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
If the law is morally wrong then we are not morally obligated to follow it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that you have brought that up the onus is on you to show why such laws are morally wrong.

Stu

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">A lot of people who have attempted suicide but were stopped by outside intervention are later very thankful they were stopped. </font>

I don't consider this a good argument. I'm assuming the person is of sound mind and is making the best decision for him/herself. That some people were thankful, doesn't mean the decision can't be made with no regrets.

[BluffTHIS!]

People who suffer from depression, which probably accounts for the majority of suicides (don't know the true figures so not sure), are definitely NOT of sound mind. Are we to abandon the mentally ill?

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
And even if you don't feel so adventurous, what about assisted suicide? If someone wants to go out a little earlier and avoid a lot of suffering, what is so wrong with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a problem with assisted suicide becuase I have a problem with suicide.

I do not have a problem if someone was diagnosed as being terminally ill and wanted to be frozen alive in the hope that 1000 years from now they could be thawed, revived, and cured. Its an extreme long shot but not entirely impossible. If the individual ultimately dies(i.e. never gets revived) then the individual died attempting a procedure to save his or hers life.

Stu

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the law is morally wrong then we are not morally obligated to follow it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that you have brought that up the onus is on you to show why such laws are morally wrong.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is a big topic, here is the way I like to analyze the moral justification of suicide which I stole from a moral philosopher named Graber.

A suicide is justified "if a reasonable appraisal of the situation reveals that one is better off dead."
Now this is a presumptive justification which means don't bring up bizarre counterexamples where the world is destroyed if you kill yourself. I agree if there is a lot of harm caused to others by your early death then that is an important factor to consider. However in general if you rationally conclude you are better off dead, then I dont see a problem.

You have the moral right to life and I believe you can waive any and all of your moral rights if you want. Just like you can waive your moral right to privacy for example.

As for somebody who is mentally ill to the point where they cannot evaluate what is best for them, I agree we should generally try to prevent them from hurting themselves.

Good link on the topic:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't consider this a good argument. I'm assuming the person is of sound mind and is making the best decision for him/herself. That some people were thankful, doesn't mean the decision can't be made with no regrets.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your willing to let all the irrational people go out and kill themselves in order to make it legal for people of sound minds?

One of the reasons you have laws against suicide is because society assumes that someone who would choose to engage in such activity is not of sound mind. Its all mute though. If you really want to commit suicide, you're going to do it and be successful regardless of what laws are written on the books.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
On a practical note, if your life insurance policy is important to the financial welfare of your loved ones after you are gone, they kiss that goodbye when you off yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

My policy pays if the suicide occurs after the policy has been in effect for a number of years.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

Hi Bork,

I did not see anything in what you said or linked to that makes a good argument for the position that laws against suicide are immoral(its pretty lenghtly and perhaps I missed it).

Instead of saying we are not obligated to obey laws which are immoral, did you really mean we can break any laws we want as long as our actions are not immoral?

Stu

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
As for somebody who is mentally ill to the point where they cannot evaluate what is best for them, I agree we should generally try to prevent them from hurting themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should someone else have this right? Who are we to impose these limits?

Furthermore, what if an intelligent, rational person decides that their life is not worth living?

[Banks2334]

[ QUOTE ]
that life is worth living and fighting for, not just for oneself, but also for others. That last 6 months you talk about, while a trial for you, might mean a lot to your loved ones. And even to you if you were receptive to God's grace.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I am a near vegetable in tremendous pain who can't take care of myself, how is that good for me or my loved ones?

[MidGe]

This is a repost from the thread If I were an atheist... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=4334474&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Post 4334474) which address the same issue and may be worth reading too.

Should life become unendurable physically, emotionally or even financially, personally I would not hesitate to take my own life. My closests are very well aware of my wishes and intentions. We have discussed it on a number of occasions and still do so once in a while.

In the last 6 months I have been made aware of two relatives (by marriage, so it is not in the blood - most of my blood relative are christians and would therefore not make that choice), who did go thru euthanasia. In the most moving case the decision had been made the day before and the doctor was due to arrive at 4 PM to facilitate. Interestingly all this man's children (and husbands and wifes of those) and very close family were with him for that day and all knew what was going to take place. From those that directly attended, it was a very strange and difficult day which however had heaps of dignity.

[Peter666]

For the true Christian, all suffering has meaning. In fact, it is a great way to expiate your sins and the sins of others on Earth and enjoy greater merit for Heaven.

Obviously, if suffering does not have meaning in one's personal philosophy, than it makes sense to blow your brains out while having a bad migraine.

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for somebody who is mentally ill to the point where they cannot evaluate what is best for them, I agree we should generally try to prevent them from hurting themselves.


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Why should someone else have this right? Who are we to impose these limits?

Furthermore, what if an intelligent, rational person decides that their life is not worth living?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I was pretty clear in my post what my attitude was towards rational people deciding to kill themselves. (go for it)

The reason behind the statement about insane people is the same reason as to why children shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they please. They are not in a position to judge what is best for them.

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Bork,

I did not see anything in what you said or linked to that makes a good argument for the position that laws against suicide are immoral(its pretty lenghtly and perhaps I missed it).


[/ QUOTE ]

Go read it again there are many arguments for and against the moral justification of suicide; if you dont think any are "good" I probably wont be able to convince you. I would like to remind you that people have a right to life. Rights have built into them the idea that we can choose to exercise them or not. That is we can waive our right to life.

[ QUOTE ]

Instead of saying we are not obligated to obey laws which are immoral, did you really mean we can break any laws we want as long as our actions are not immoral?


[/ QUOTE ]


No, thats not what I said. I said just because something is against the law that does not entail it is immoral.
You seem to be confusing legal and moral obligations they are distinct issues. You can break many laws without doing anything immoral, moreover there are some laws that if you followed them you would be doing something morally wrong.

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
A suicide is justified "if a reasonable appraisal of the situation reveals that one is better off dead."
Now this is a presumptive justification which means don't bring up bizarre counterexamples where the world is destroyed if you kill yourself. I agree if there is a lot of harm caused to others by your early death then that is an important factor to consider. However in general if you rationally conclude you are better off dead, then I dont see a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

My close friends father decided it was better for his family if he hung himself of the local bridge. Suicide is a most selfish act that should not ever be an option. Of course it was better for his family if he had stayed alive, he couldn't see it though. This is why suicide is not ok if you rationally conclude you are better off dead. It is an irrational act.

I agree with the above poster who said that there is a lot to be learnt from suffering, this is the option that I would take because I would want any time I had left.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">For the true Christian, all suffering has meaning. In fact, it is a great way to expiate your sins and the sins of others on Earth and enjoy greater merit for Heaven. </font>

I prefaced by stating that this wouldn't apply to Christians, although I was thinking more along the lines of only God can give or take life. You bring up an interesting point about suffering being a great way to expiate sins. Too bad you stopped short of providing any logic behind this belief. Is it me, or is preaching gaining acceptance on here?

<font color="blue"> Obviously, if suffering does not have meaning in one's personal philosophy, than it makes sense to blow your brains out while having a bad migraine. </font>

I understand that this is an attempt to mock my question, but if you had an incurable migraine that would not go away, then why shouldn't it be up to the individual to make the decision if his/her life was still worth living?

[Peter666]

I cannot empirically prove Faith. You either except the preaching or you don't.

And I am not mocking your question. I do now see how I or anyone would want to live while suffering tremendous pain if it has no meaning.

[Lestat]

I agree that suicide is often an act of incredible selfishness. Particularily when the effect on loved ones is not fully considered. But...

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the above poster who said that there is a lot to be learnt from suffering, this is the option that I would take because I would want any time I had left.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the event of terminal illnesses a case can be made for sparing your loved ones the torment of watching you suffer. I'm not sure if you ever had to watch a loved one die a horrible slow death and I hope you never do. But it can be devastating especially for kids or an elderly parent.

Personally, I wouldn't want to put my kids (or an elderly mother) through something like that. I wouldn't want them to have to watch me in pain and suffering like that. I'd want them to have good memories of me.

[hashi92]

yeah i feels sorry for all the kids who have to take care of their parents when they get older. the people who are arguing with you would probally put their parents in a olds folks home.

[Banks2334]

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot empirically prove Faith. You either except the preaching or you don't.

And I am not mocking your question. I do now see how I or anyone would want to live while suffering tremendous pain if it has no meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]
And what great meaning does this pain have?

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]

No, thats not what I said. I said just because something is against the law that does not entail it is immoral.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you really said was

[ QUOTE ]
If the law is morally wrong then we are not morally obligated to follow it.


[/ QUOTE ]

The question isn't wether or not there is a moral justification for suicide, the question is "Is it immoral for the state to prohibit suicide".

We got here because the OP wanted to know if there was some other moral reason why one should not participate in owns own suicide or assist another in suicide that does not stem from religious beliefs. Some people believe we are morally obligated to follow all legitimate laws of the state.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i feels sorry for all the kids who have to take care of their parents when they get older. the people who are arguing with you would probally put their parents in a olds folks home.

[/ QUOTE ]

I built my house right next to my parents so I could take care of them when they become too old to take care of themselves. Statements like the one above make you look silly.

Stu

[Riddick]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand Christians having a problem with it, since their belief is that no one has a right to determine who dies or when they die other than God.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was my understanding that the problem Christians have with suicide is the fact that its the ultimate insult to God.

Its like opening a gift on your birthday and telling the person "this gift sucks, I don't want it."

[Peter666]

See three posts above.

[New001]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand Christians having a problem with it, since their belief is that no one has a right to determine who dies or when they die other than God.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was my understanding that the problem Christians have with suicide is the fact that its the ultimate insult to God.

Its like opening a gift on your birthday and telling the person "this gift sucks, I don't want it."

[/ QUOTE ]
Why, then, does suicide offend God, but a doctor sustaining someone's life isn't?

If someone were to die without a doctor's intervention, and a doctor intervenes, why is this not just as bad?

[Lestat]

Good point.

[hashi92]

dude im sorry if i offended you but have you ever seen someone take care of the elderly let alone someone with alzheimers. its not an easy task. im just saying alot of people will preach this and that but when it comes time to pay the piper they dissapear.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Why, then, does suicide offend God, but a doctor sustaining someone's life isn't?

If someone were to die without a doctor's intervention, and a doctor intervenes, why is this not just as bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

A gift giver appreciates it when the reciever of the gift takes steps to preserve it. If you gave your girl friend a new car would you appreciate it if she turned around drove it in a demolition derby? By trying to perserve your life as long as possible you are showing God you appreciate the gift he has given you.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
dude im sorry if i offended you but have you ever seen someone take care of the elderly let alone someone with alzheimers. its not an easy task. im just saying alot of people will preach this and that but when it comes time to pay the piper they dissapear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust me, I often wonder if I am going to be up to the task.

Stu

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why, then, does suicide offend God, but a doctor sustaining someone's life isn't?

If someone were to die without a doctor's intervention, and a doctor intervenes, why is this not just as bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

A gift giver appreciates it when the reciever of the gift takes steps to preserve it. If you gave your girl friend a new car would you appreciate it if she turned around drove it in a demolition derby? By trying to perserve your life as long as possible you are showing God you appreciate the gift he has given you.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
Making the most of something and making it last as long as possible are not the same thing.

and a proper gift doesn't come with demands on the receiver.

chez

[Riddick]

[ QUOTE ]
Why, then, does suicide offend God, but a doctor sustaining someone's life isn't?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you entirely missed my point.

In what way does, say, CPR, disrespect the gift of life?

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Making the most of something and making it last as long as possible are not the same thing.


[/ QUOTE ]

True, thats why most religions do not require a person to take extra ordinary measures to preserve ones life. I'm my last post I should have said "take ordinary care" instead of saying "preserve as long as possible". Surely you realize there is a big difference between taking ordinary care of something and ending it prematurely.

[ QUOTE ]
and a proper gift doesn't come with demands on the receiver.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because the demands are not explicitly stated does not mean they don't exist.

Stu

[New001]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why, then, does suicide offend God, but a doctor sustaining someone's life isn't?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you entirely missed my point.

In what way does, say, CPR, disrespect the gift of life?

[/ QUOTE ]
Is the afterlife not a gift, too?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]

Making the most of something and making it last as long as possible are not the same thing.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



True, thats why most religions do not require a person to take extra ordinary measures to preserve ones life. I'm my last post I should have said "take ordinary care" instead of saying "preserve as long as possible". Surely you realize there is a big difference between taking ordinary care of something and ending it prematurely.

[/ QUOTE ]
Taking care of soemthing means not acting in a careless or negligent manner. That doesn't mean you have to take ordinary or extraordinary to prolong it.

Making the most of life can include chosing to end it in a caring manner once it has negative value - normally terminal illness with chronic suffering. I would commit suicide in such a state and am fairly sure that would cause no additional pain for those who care.

I can't imagine a god worth worrying about who would have a problem with this.

chez

[Bork]

This whole life is sacred and should be preserved even if it means a large increase in suffering is an odd position.
Especially if you consider that the people who hold this position would agree to the following:

There are times when taking a life is justified.
Many lives have been taken in the name of Jesus Christ.
Usually the justification given by Christians for killing is to avoid the suffering of self or friends. Often this is refered to as the self-defense justification for killing.



My main point:

If somebody wants to torture you, you would be justified in killing them if that was the only way you could stop them.

How is this not disrespectful to God? After all he gave the would be torturer the gift of life and now you are destroying it. It was argued that in the case of suicide you are doing something bad by destroying God's gift to you, it seems to me that destroying somebody elses gift from God is an even worse crime.

How is this different from protecting yourself from torture by taking your own life? Assume for this example that in taking your own life you are not harming anybody else.

[RJT]

Stat,

I am not sure given the reality of six months as opposed to a hypothetical six months one would necessarily feel the same. Most of us have had experiences that afterward we surprised ourselves how much pain (physical or emotional) we can actually endure. Also, confronted with death (either one’s own or that of a loved one) life usually takes on a different perspective. So, ignoring your actual question, I am suggesting that I would not be so confident that I would pull the plug on myself.

Have you ever experienced the death of a loved one? The times I have everything takes on a different perspective. Little things in life appear the trivial things they are. Minor problem are no longer worries. Things like that. To me time seems to stop for a while after the death of a loved one. So, I am suggesting that given a “real” six months to go, one might feel different about it.

The other thing I would consider faced with this situation is my loved ones. I certainly would not make this decision without discussing it with people I cared for. I think it would be selfish to do otherwise. (I am talking here only of self and/or assisted euthanasia. Most other suicides are brought on by depression and these considerations do not enter the scenario since the person is not able to comprehend the decision or the consequences.) Suicide might be painless, as the song from MASH says, but it isn’t for the ones who are left behind.

RJT

[West]

Outside of considering the effect a suicide might have on loved ones such as friends and family, which obviously would be in some ways less of a consideration the closer you are to natural death and/or the greater the suffering you are in, it seems to me that the other thing you would need to consider has to do with your religious/spiritual beliefs, and basically, whether you think there is a point or a purpose to life. And what happens to you when you die.

Hypothetical example: just say that we're all currently living on Earth for the purpose of improving our souls and learning different kinds of lessons. Let's say that in the majority of cases of suicide, the suicider prevents themselves from going through some experiences they were meant to go through before death, thus depriving themselves of some of the experience that was the point of their life on Earth. And maybe resulting in a lot of wasted time having to get back to that point in some other life (reincarnation) where you could get those experiences you were supposed to get before. Just something to worry about.

If a loved one of mine was in a state of physical suffering and misery that was simply going to persist until their eventual death, I would almost certainly support them if they wished to check out on their own terms. In the same position, I might very well want the same for myself. I don't know about a failed parachute death though. I think if there's an after life to go to, it might make the transition a little easier if you check out in a less traumatic way. But who knows.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Taking care of soemthing means not acting in a careless or negligent manner. That doesn't mean you have to take ordinary or extraordinary to prolong it.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know there is a reason why the warranty on your new car gets voided if you don't change the oil. You are responsible to take the ordinary care required to prolong the life of the engine.

[ QUOTE ]
Making the most of life can include chosing to end it in a caring manner once it has negative value - normally terminal illness with chronic suffering......

I can't imagine a god worth worrying about who would have a problem with this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can you imagine a god who might be upset if you ended yourlife when it still has positive value? If that god permitted suicide what precentage of the people would make that mistake?

The reason societies prohibit suicide is the same reason God does. If its allowed too many people would end their lives while they still had positive value. Any good achieved by allowing suicide or assisted suicide would be completely eclipsed by the bad that also comes with it.

Stu

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Taking care of soemthing means not acting in a careless or negligent manner. That doesn't mean you have to take ordinary or extraordinary to prolong it.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know there is a reason why the warranty on your new car gets voided if you don't change the oil. You are responsible to take the ordinary care required to prolong the life of the engine.

[ QUOTE ]
Making the most of life can include chosing to end it in a caring manner once it has negative value - normally terminal illness with chronic suffering......

I can't imagine a god worth worrying about who would have a problem with this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can you imagine a god who might be upset if you ended yourlife when it still has positive value? If that god permitted suicide what precentage of the people would make that mistake?

The reason societies prohibit suicide is the same reason God does. If its allowed too many people would end their lives while they still had positive value. Any good achieved by allowing suicide or assisted suicide would be completely eclipsed by the bad that also comes with it.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine a god who will be unduly concerned if I make a mistake, otherwise he would have made me perfect.

Of course I make loads of mistakes and no doubt some have a serious impact on life expectancy but suicide if I'm terminal and in chronic pain with the opportunity to say goodbye and end it peacefully is not very likely to be a mistake and, I would say, is a positively good thing.Not just for me but also for those who care - someone who has had a good life going through tremendous suffering at the end is not a good thing for anyone concerned.

chez

[MidGe]

It seems that many believers are more compassionate towards animals (which they would put out of their misery, with little pangs) than towards their fellow humans who only want to die in a dignified way. You religious people seem to have little direct experience with death, or only a very sterile way.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that many believers are more compassionate towards animals (which they would put out of their misery, with little pangs) than towards their fellow humans who only want to die in a dignified way. You religious people seem to have little direct experience with death, or only a very sterile way.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure they have the same experiences of death (other peoples /images/graemlins/smile.gif) as the rest of us.

I just cant fathom this wierd mindset that believes in a loving, wise, omnipotent ... god and then is so concerned that somehow they can harm this god (or god will harm them) for making mistakes when acting with the best of intentions.

chez

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure they have the same experiences of death (other peoples ) as the rest of us


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are deaths and deaths, of others, I assure you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I make loads of mistakes and no doubt some have a serious impact on life expectancy but suicide if I'm terminal and in chronic pain with the opportunity to say goodbye and end it peacefully is not very likely to be a mistake and, I would say, is a positively good thing.Not just for me but also for those who care - someone who has had a good life going through tremendous suffering at the end is not a good thing for anyone concerned.


[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't addressed my point that any good which could possibly come from allowing suicide would be eclipsed by the bad that would also come with it. You are trying to take your specific situation and apply it in general. All you have said is "If I commit suicide it ain't going to be a mistake".

Stu

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course I make loads of mistakes and no doubt some have a serious impact on life expectancy but suicide if I'm terminal and in chronic pain with the opportunity to say goodbye and end it peacefully is not very likely to be a mistake and, I would say, is a positively good thing.Not just for me but also for those who care - someone who has had a good life going through tremendous suffering at the end is not a good thing for anyone concerned.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are trying to take your specific situation and apply it in general. All you have said is "If I commit suicide it ain't going to be a mistake".
Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm saying it can be a reasonable judgement to make. I'm also saying that if it was a mistake then I've nothing to fear from a loving, wise, omnimpotent ... god.

[ QUOTE ]
You haven't addressed my point that any good which could possibly come from allowing suicide would be eclipsed by the bad that would also come with it.

[/ QUOTE ]
This has some validity but is only with discussing if you agree that some suicides are good. Then we could discuss how to best prevent the bad ones. If in fact you believe all suicide is bad then its a bogus point.

chez

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
This has some validity but is only with discussing if you agree that some suicides are good. Then we could discuss how to best prevent the bad ones. If in fact you believe all suicide is bad then its a bogus point.


[/ QUOTE ]

Even if some suicides are good, I don't see any reason why there should not be prohibitions against it. For instance if you, Chezlaw, are 100% certain you want to commit suicide and it will be "good", is any law going to stop you? Its not like you could be punished for it after the fact.

Stu

[bocablkr]

No problem with it as long as most family members are ok with it.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone point out a moral problem as long as I don't hurt anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. It's wrong.

Live your life no matter what, there are worse fates than life.

[Banks2334]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone point out a moral problem as long as I don't hurt anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. It's wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]
Its wrong according to who?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This has some validity but is only with discussing if you agree that some suicides are good. Then we could discuss how to best prevent the bad ones. If in fact you believe all suicide is bad then its a bogus point.


[/ QUOTE ]

Even if some suicides are good, I don't see any reason why there should not be prohibitions against it. For instance if you, Chezlaw, are 100% certain you want to commit suicide and it will be "good", is any law going to stop you? Its not like you could be punished for it after the fact.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
The crime would be attempted suicide and people have been punished for that. It still all dancing around the key issue which is that in certain circumstances suicide is a perfectly good option.

chez

[soon2bepro]

everyone has their own morals, but i think the more "advanced" people wouldn't have a problem with suicide. Some might argue that you only have the right to suicide in extreme circumstances (such as if you're in constant extreme pain or something like that)

Personally, I think morals are obsolete. But from a logical point of view, your reasoning is correct. There's no reason why you shouldn't kill yourself if you don't wanna live//suffer anymore.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
The crime would be attempted suicide and people have been punished for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, from what I understand you english types hanged a man becuase that man tried to slit his own throat. That was a couple of hundred years ago though Nowdays suicide is generally treated in anglo american law as a grevious wrong but nonfelonious offense.

[ QUOTE ]
It still all dancing around the key issue which is that in certain circumstances suicide is a perfectly good option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if it is, its not an option states should be condoning.

Stu

[hmkpoker]

I think capital punishment should extend to the crime of attempted suicide.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It still all dancing around the key issue which is that in certain circumstances suicide is a perfectly good option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if it is, its not an option states should be condoning.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, maybe not. I'm not really interested in discussing politics. The original point remains that there are circumstances where suicide is a good option and the existance or not of a god doesnt change that.

chez

[Bork]

I don't ask that they condone it.
Just that they dont punish people who try to do it, or assist others.

The government has no business protecting people from themselves. Now in cases where the suicide might harm others I can understand the prohibition. In the cases where somebody has a short time to live and is in a lot of pain it is none of the governments business whether they want to end their life a little early. The government is forcing their Christian values on the rest of us when they make this kind of law.

Now the question remains do you think Suicide is always wrong as Christians say? If it isn't absolutely always wrong then the law should have exceptions. Just as the law for other killing people who didn't volunteer to be killed has exceptions when it is deemed that the killing is justified, self-defense, capital punishment, accidents etc.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not really interested in discussing politics.


[/ QUOTE ]

The reason we got here is because the OP wanted to know if a moral reason not based in christian beliefs existed that prohibited one from committing suicided. My response was that some believe we had a moral obligation to follow all legitimate state laws. Unfortunately, Chezlaw, you cannot exclude politics in a discussion about morality because they overlap.

[ QUOTE ]
The original point remains that there are circumstances where suicide is a good option and the existance or not of a god doesnt change that

[/ QUOTE ]

Going to get long winded here. So please be patient.

I don't believe a Kamakazi piliot commits suicide because he flys his plane into an aircraft carrier. The reason he is flying his plane into that aircraft carrier is because the carrier is a ligitimate target in war and he has a mission to try to destroy it. He's death is the result of his attack on the enemy and not because he made an attack on himself. I should also note that even though the piliot does not have to have any reasonable expectation of survival, he at least has to have the disire. Such a piliot in such a situation does not commit suicide.

Earlier in this thread I stated I didn't have a problem if a terminally ill patient wanted to freeze himself alive in the hope he could be revived in the future. I see this as a patient who is not committing suicide but attempting to save his life.

I don't have a problem if a terminally ill patient takes extraordinary measures to alliviate his suffering. He doesn't have to have a reasonable expectation of surviving those measures, but he at least has to have the desire. The measure have to be consistent with that goal.

Basically what it comes down to is I think its wrong to give up on life. Humans have a moral obligation to promote an environment which fosters a desire to live. The sanctioning of suicide is contradictory to that obligation.

Stu

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not really interested in discussing politics.


[/ QUOTE ]

The reason we got here is because the OP wanted to know if a moral reason not based in christian beliefs existed that prohibited one from committing suicided. My response was that some believe we had a moral obligation to follow all legitimate state laws. Unfortunately, Chezlaw, you cannot exclude politics in a discussion about morality because they overlap.

[ QUOTE ]
The original point remains that there are circumstances where suicide is a good option and the existance or not of a god doesnt change that

[/ QUOTE ]

Going to get long winded here. So please be patient.

I don't believe a Kamakazi piliot commits suicide because he flys his plane into an aircraft carrier. The reason he is flying his plane into that aircraft carrier is because the carrier is a ligitimate target in war and he has a mission to try to destroy it. He's death is the result of his attack on the enemy and not because he made an attack on himself. I should also note that even though the piliot does not have to have any reasonable expectation of survival, he at least has to have the disire. Such a piliot in such a situation does not commit suicide.

Earlier in this thread I stated I didn't have a problem if a terminally ill patient wanted to freeze himself alive in the hope he could be revived in the future. I see this as a patient who is not committing suicide but attempting to save his life.

I don't have a problem if a terminally ill patient takes extraordinary measures to alliviate his suffering. He doesn't have to have a reasonable expectation of surviving those measures, but he at least has to have the desire. The measure have to be consistent with that goal.


Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that politics doesn't matter just that I'm not that interested in discussing it. However the kamakazi pilots would have done better to ask why and then tell the emporer to stuff it.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically what it comes down to is I think its wrong to give up on life. Humans have a moral obligation to promote an environment which fosters a desire to live. The sanctioning of suicide is contradictory to that obligation.


[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree, which is the point. There can be times when its good to give up on life. There is no obligation on humams to foster pointless suffering.

chez

[chezlaw]

Stu, doesn't it seem kinda wierd that the christian thinks killing oneself whilst harming others is okay but is wrong as a compasionate act, and the athiest thinks the reverse.

chez

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Stu, doesn't it seem kinda wierd that the christian thinks killing oneself whilst harming others is okay but is wrong as a compasionate act, and the athiest thinks the reverse.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Stu, doesn't it seem kinda wierd that the christian thinks killing oneself whilst harming others is okay but is wrong as a compasionate act, and the athiest thinks the reverse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Christians think dieing whilst harming other combatants in just war is ok. I know you know this becuase you just got done reading my post explaining a Kamakazi piliot is not necessarily committing suicide. Is the athiest position so weak it has to resort to distorting the Christian position? You're as guilty of that as is Russell.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
However the kamakazi pilots would have done better to ask why and then tell the emporer to stuff it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]
There is no obligation on humams to foster pointless suffering.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a difference between fostering pointless suffering and fostering a desire to live. Again you are guilty of distorting the opposing position.

Stu

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stu, doesn't it seem kinda wierd that the christian thinks killing oneself whilst harming others is okay but is wrong as a compasionate act, and the athiest thinks the reverse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Christians think dieing whilst harming other combatants in just war is ok. I know you know this becuase you just got done reading my post explaining a Kamakazi piliot is not necessarily committing suicide. Is the athiest position so weak it has to resort to distorting the Christian position? You're as guilty of that as is Russell.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't distort your position, I dont think. We seem to be saying the same thing.

You said
[ QUOTE ]
Christians think dieing whilst harming other combatants in just war is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]
which is what I said you said and you think suicide to end suffering isn't ok.

I think its wierd that you think that while an athiest thinks the reverse. I'm fairly sure were Russell would stand on this, I wonder what jesus would say?

chez

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't distort your position, I dont think. We seem to be saying the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suicide = one killing of onesself
I said Kamakazi poliots do not commit suicide.
Therefore I said Kamakazi piliots do not kill themselves.

You distorted that into saying I said it ok for Christians to killselves in combat. I never said its ok for Christians to kill themselves, I never said its ok for Kamakazis to kill themselves. If I did quote and paste it.

Stu

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't distort your position, I dont think. We seem to be saying the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suicide = one killing of onesself
I said Kamakazi poliots do not commit suicide.
Therefore I said Kamakazi piliots do not kill themselves.

You distorted that into saying I said it ok for Christians to killselves in combat. I never said its ok for Christians to kill themselves, I never said its ok for Kamakazis to kill themselves. If I did quote and paste it.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
I apologise. When you talked of kamakazis I understood that to mean people who killed themselves on a mission.

I'm still not sure what you mean by saying that they don't kill themselves.

chez