tptk v lag with poll

[2Paul2]

villain is a spewy overbetting lag. hes been overbetting with all sorts of rubbish an a few good hands to. ive only played one hand with him so far were i reraised his btn open with AQ, he called an min raised my cb on a K high flop which i folded to so he may think i can be pushed about.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($70.23)
BB ($102.70)
UTG ($334.27)
MP ($28.33)
Hero ($97)
Button ($188.79)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($9.50) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($9.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $20</font>, Hero calls $20.

River: ($49.50) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $75</font>, Hero?

additional comments on my general line appreciated as well as what to do on the river.

paul

[4_2_it]

And you checked the flop because?

[quarkncover]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Bet the flop. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

*Edit: I voted call because I enjoy calling overbets, seriously, in my experience I'd much rather call an overbet than a 1/2 pot-2/3 pot bet, maybe because they are so often complete cheese. If I call turn I'm calling river. Oh yeah, bet the flop.

[DumbRock]

After checking the flop and call turn, Villian may put you on a busted draw and may be trying to get you off your hand. I'd call and puke it Villian has a 4.

And yes, bet the flop!

[Jamougha]

Given your read, there's no way you can check the flop, call the turn then fold the river. You have to call.

[jjigglers]

I call because that's what you wanted by checking the flop. Don't die on your read now.

[2Paul2]

do u guys never check the flop on dry boards v lags?

i checked because villain is most likely drawing very thin an lags love to fire the turn an river after you've checked the flop. with no read or against a normal or passive villain i always bet this flop but i like to mix some checks in v lags. also say i had JJJ(or just a monster in general on a safe flop) villain is likely to have nothing so i wanna check an see if he can catch something on the turn but i cant do this if im only doing it with big hands.

so i guess in summary to balance my checks with monsters an to invite the lag to fire with whatever rubbish he has. obviously as ive invited him to bet i need to be calling. it was the size of the turn/river bets that made me stop and think.

paul

[DumbRock]

I may check if OOP hoping to c/r the lag. But in this case, your hand is not good enough to give the lag a chance to improve for free.

[4_2_it]

Now that you explained your rationale, I'm on board with the flop check. I would say that it accomplished exactly what you expected it to.

[directscooter]

I am sure some of you guys read the Mid Stakes a good amount. The other day there was a really good post about this type of hand. TWP was saying that checking the flop with TPTK can be a great move. Although I know this is a tool more used at higher than SSNL, I think this is an example of why it can work. A LAG here is gonna bet the heck out of almost anything, could he have a 4 or some wierd str8, of course but you showed him weakness and he is jumping on it. I would be interested to see what others would think of repopping the turn... but I think I am definitely calling the overbet with the read that you have.

[Morrek]

Checking the flop requires you to get away sometimes when he hits a miracle turn, which probably didn't happen here however. I check flop from time to time, although it's been a while since I met one of these players.

On the river I'd definetly call because the odds that the 4 helped him are fairly small, and he's probably doing this with a wide range. I'd prepare to reload here once in a while though

[Morrek]

Repopping the turn makes him fold all worse hands except maybe TPNK, but he probably thinks you're trapping him there too.

[DumbRock]

Reppoing the turn would mean a bet of about $60. You have then committed 75% of your stack on TPTK. I would not feel comfortable doing that, but it looks like a viable option. If called, what then? your pot odds will be huge, so is it an instcall if Villian bets the river? Then you might as well push the turn, which then commits your whole stack.

Can somebody please chime in? I am not sure if I have the cajunas to repop the turn, but can see this as viable, given read on Villian.

[Nepthu]

Sometimes loose aggressive players will bet the pot all the time. Flop, turn and river on bluffs. But then when they make a great hand they overbet the pot. This is how they get paid off big time. So if this is the first time he has overbet I might reconsider the read on the turn.

[directscooter]

I am definitely on the fence with raising the turn, I guess it depends on who we are dealing with. I think alot of times you are getting any J to call, and probably even less. (This was the point of TWP's post, he believed you could get a lot of junk like 10's or 8's to call you here). However if he is the type of LAG to fold to aggression then I hear ya. Also if he is the type of LAG to do what he did on the river, there is no reason to wake him up.

[Nepthu]

If you think he is on a bluff or you think you are beating him then you don't want to take away the lead in betting. You want him to bet the river like he did. I think. I think you would only want to repop if you put him on a draw. Check call can be your best weapon against maniacs.

[directscooter]

You are correct, with these stacks, I think a repop would be a push... some LAG's would be offended thinking that you are bluffing at them and call with a 2.
Again I am not sure if this is a good play or not, I keep on going back and forth on it.

[2Paul2]

most of you pretty much summed up my thoughts at the time, ive got what i wanted time to call so i did.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $334.27
UTG+1: $28.33
Hero: $97
Button: $188.79
SB: $70.23
BB: $102.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls $3.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($9.5, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($9.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc3333">UTG bets $20</font>, Hero calls $20.

River: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($49.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc3333">UTG bets $75</font>, <font color="#cc3333">Hero calls all-in $73</font>.
Uncalled bets: $2 returned to UTG.

Results:
Final pot: $195.5
<font color="#ffffff">UTG shows 3h Kd </font>
<font color="#ffffff">Hero shows Jh Ad </font>

when i looked back at the hand the river call just felt a litlle fishy for sum reason which is why i posted but most of you seem to think its ok so i feel a bit better about it now.

also check/call/call against lags on boards like this has been working out pretty good an sumthing ive just started mixing in so i think ill stick with it for now.

thx for the comments

paul

p.s. isura this converter is awesome.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
villain is a spewy overbetting lag. hes been overbetting with all sorts of rubbish an a few good hands to.

Flop: ($9.50) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect; just perfect. Man, I LOVE this play. You've got a solid read, a solid hand, and a solid position, and you use them all when you pull this. Checking is going to get him to redline his betting engine, and you can now come along for the ride with two calls. If he wimps out on the river, you can bet it for him, but this kind of lagtard isn't going to slow down.

This is a terrific play, and a great use of your read.

Oh, and if you set up a perfect trap like this and then fold to the river bet, you deserve to be punched in the neck. That's like blowing your nose on a Jackson Pollack -- while nobody but you will ever know, it's still an awful, awful move.