I wanna run 5km

[00Snitch]

I work with a bunch of 40+ years olds, one dude over 50, I'm 23. Alot of them are runners, they can all (including one lady mid 40s and the over 50 guy) do 5km in around 25 mins (ranges from 25-27). So today, I thought "eff this! If old dudes can do that shizzle, so can I!".

So for possibly the first time in my life I ran 5km today. It took me about 32min 44sec.

My thoughts are:
-I plan on doing a 2km/5km/2km/5km on mon/tue/wed/thu and probably not on the weekends, although i play some social sport on the weekends. (touch football, indoor soccer and cricket)
-How long should it take me to get my time down to around 25mins, considering I am:
-Male, 23, 182cm, 78kg
-My gf has an electronic scale at home that tells me I am ~23% fat and ~57% water something
- I smoke on the weekends, about a pack of 20 over the weekend
- I drink a fair bit on the weekends. mostly beer. in a standard night, i might go through ten 375ml full strength (~5%) beers.

My eventual goal is 20 minutes. Doable?

Any other advice?

I never even knew there was a 2p2 gym forum til about 10 minutes ago, awsome

[Reef]

asfjasldjfasljfal ... just say 3.125 miles.

--
I was playing tennis in high school 3-5x a week for and running 2-3x a week (4-5 miles) to be able to do a 20min 3 mile. Doable? well ya.. but you're going to have to run everyday for a period of months and probably cut down on smoking.

[Queensgrad]

I did a similar thing last summer. Obviously, Quit smoking. I ran it like an interval, since I was used to playing sports which are more exertion with periods of rest than a straight long exertion. I would run medium-hard for 4 min, walk 1 min, rinse and repeat. I tried to run 5km 2x / week until i made my goal time, then i tried to do a 9/1 run/walk to start, then 4/1 the rest of the way. After 2 months I ran it in 22 min with 2 x1 min walks in there. (My starting point was 4km in 35 min, and near death).

[nyc999]

Getting down to 25 minutes is very doable with training. 25-->20 minutes will be difficult as this is where natural ability starts to come into play.

I wouldn't run Monday-Thursday and take off weekends. You're better off running 2-3 days on, 1 off. At this point, work on endurance. Build up to 5-6 miles (8K-10K) and it's possible to reach your goal within a few months. However, this isn't taking into account drinking/smoking, that could make it harder.

To get from 25->20, you'll need to take things much more serious, including speed workouts and probably quitting smoking.

OOT has a running group through the Nike website, you should check it out.

[BreakfastBurrito]

23% body fat seems really high for someone of your height and weight. Those electronic sensors can be relatively inaccurate. I think you should be fine to get to 25 minutes in 3 months. 25 minutes is a good goal that a moderately fit person your age should be able to achieve. You haven't ran before, so you should experience quick improvement. I'd really recommend some rest in between your training days though. It's very easy to get injured as a beginner if you try to put 4 straight days in. As you start to get stronger, add some distance to your training runs.

If you're exerting yourself strongly in football and soccer, you probably don't have to worry about speed work. If those sports are really laid back though, you might want to add some interval speed work into your training once or twice a week.

You can definitely get to 20 minutes if you want it. You'll have to adopt a real training program at some point (for now just getting out and running should suffice). If you're dedicated you could probably get there inside 6 months. If you just stick with running and gradually improve on your condition and intensity of training, it's probably more like 18-24 months.

[Luke]

[ QUOTE ]
At this point, work on endurance. Build up to 5-6 miles (8K-10K) and it's possible to reach your goal within a few months.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm somewhat surprised to hear you say this. Obviously endurance is important, but in a relatively short run like a 5k, I would be concentrating a lot of my training on improving my running speed.

For example, I might go to a 1/4 mile track and interval laps between an all-out sprint and speed-walk. Doing this for a few miles can really help build running speed which you're going to need to do a 5k under 20 minutes.

[Spellmen]

[ QUOTE ]
As you start to get stronger, add some distance to your training runs.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is very good advice that alot of beginners don't get. If most people want to be able to run 1 or 3 miles, they practice running 1 and 3 miles. Going longer once a week will help really build your stamina, and if nothing else help you mentally get the 5k done

[BreakfastBurrito]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm somewhat surprised to hear you say this. Obviously endurance is important, but in a relatively short run like a 5k, I would be concentrating a lot of my training on improving my running speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 5k is an endurance event. See the breakdown for aerobic vs anaerobic component. Improving strength, form, and speed from interval workouts can definitely help, but improving aerobic capacity is by far the most important factor. There are 3 guys in my track club 41, 46, and 52 years of age who ran 18:54, 18:58 and 18:13 respectively at their last 5k race a few weeks ago, and these guys have no speed at all. They do it all on lots of moderate to mid level intensity miles.


Anaerobic % vs Aerobic %
Marathon - 1 99
10k - 3 97
5k - 6 94
3k - 12 88
1500m - 23 77
800m - 40 60
400m - 57 43

[Genesis]

[ QUOTE ]
-How long should it take me to get my time down to around 25mins

[/ QUOTE ]
Like another poster said, getting down to 25 minutes should be fairly easy. If you haven't run in a long time/ever but aren't very out of shape, I think this is very doable in 3-4 weeks, probably less. At this point it's really just about acclimating your body and mind to running for an extended period of time. Dropping from 25 to 20 minutes is when you would need to start training more seriously.

If I had a 25 minute 5k goal, I'd train every other day something like this to guarantee success:
Our goal is 3 consecutive 8 min miles basically.

Day 1 Run 2-3 miles easy
Day 2 off
Day 3 Run 1/2 mile in 3:40-3:50, walk 1-2 min, repeat 4 times.
Day 4 off
Day 5 Run 2-3 miles easy
Day 6 off
Day 7 Run 1/2 mile in 3:40-3:50, walk 1-2 min, repeat 4 times.

Repeat this cycle each week, adding 1/2 mile to the easy run and one more 1/2 mile repeat to the intervals each week. In the third week you will be running 6x1/2 mile intervals at 3:40-3:50, essentially race distance at slightly faster than goal pace. If you can do that workout the 25 min goal should be easy.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Anaerobic % vs Aerobic %
Marathon - 1 99
10k - 3 97
5k - 6 94
3k - 12 88
1500m - 23 77
800m - 40 60
400m - 57 43

[/ QUOTE ]

Very interesting and enlightening. But what is the scientific/mathematical basis behind these numbers?

[BreakfastBurrito]

[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting and enlightening. But what is the scientific/mathematical basis behind these numbers?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard these numbers thrown around several times on running forums, and took that specific chart from this paper (http://ustfccca.cstv.com/convention/seminars/chapman-mile-training.doc). It only mentions general techniques, and doesn't reference specific papers that generated those numbers. I'll admit I don't have any real knowledge of the techniques used to extract those values, and just have accepted them as reliable.

[00Snitch]

Thanks for the all the advice. Common themes seem to be:
1) Don't do four days straight
2) Add in some longer distance
3) 25mins should be doable with a few months training
4) 20mins is probably not doable with out a significant amount of work

So, my revised "plan" looks like this.

Point 1 & 2)

mon - 2km
tue - 5km
wed - 2km
thu - off
frid - off
sat - this eventually will be my longer distance, I guess I will aim for 10km, but I think until I can more comfortably run 5km, I will stick to that for a while
sun - off

I want to do four runs a week and I want to definatly have Friday (going out) and Sunday(cricket all day) off. I would prefer to do a short distance if possible on Wed because I run in the evenings (after work) and I also play touch football on wed night, so I don't waanna be too buggered for that. Does that look ok?

point 3 & 4)

I kind of expected this, although, my work participates in an anual fun-run type thing that is 5km and the winners do that in around 17 mins. So I thought I might be able to get to 20mins. However,given the comments, this could be out of range for the my level of dedecation. So I think I'll stick with my initial goal of 25mins and maybe work it down to around 22-23mins once I can do that.

[ QUOTE ]

23% body fat seems really high for someone of your height and weight


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the same thing. /images/graemlins/frown.gif So I guess running should help this.

[ QUOTE ]

If you're exerting yourself strongly in football and soccer


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. I finish the game quite breathless, although I consider myself quite unfit, so it may not be "strong" exertion, but its hard work for me. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
asfjasldjfasljfal ... just say 3.125 miles

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm Aussie! Actually, I normally convert things to imperial measurement when I post on 2p2, but I thought, if there was any forum that would understand metric, it would be gym. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Isn't distance normally measured in metres for running. i.e. 10,000m, 5,000m. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Quit smoking


[/ QUOTE ]

ORly? /images/graemlins/grin.gif I have actually, been cutting this back, I've gone from about 4 packs a week at the start of the year to 1 or less a week (on the weekends /images/graemlins/tongue.gif).

Thanks again for all the advice.

[Queensgrad]

remember to take before and after pics so you can be proud of yourself after a few months of hard work. Its the thing I always wish i did before starting a new training program.

[00Snitch]

You just wanna see me with my shirt off, don't you. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I was just going to log my times, but this might be cool too. thanks.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
mon - 2km
tue - 5km
wed - 2km
thu - off
frid - off
sat - this eventually will be my longer distance, I guess I will aim for 10km, but I think until I can more comfortably run 5km, I will stick to that for a while
sun - off

I want to do four runs a week and I want to definatly have Friday (going out) and Sunday(cricket all day) off. I would prefer to do a short distance if possible on Wed because I run in the evenings (after work) and I also play touch football on wed night, so I don't waanna be too buggered for that. Does that look ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

The advice in this thread, especially Burrito's has been good.

Getting in 4 days is a good plan. I run 4 days a week and my week is built around my big run on the weekend. For instance this week looks like 5m,6m,5m,12m...5 miles on Mon, 6 on Tues, 5 on Thurs, and 12 on Sat. I need a rest day on Wed b/c of the back to back Mon/Tues and it separates what would be 4 days in a row. Also, the most crucial thing is the day off before and after the long run.

I know Friday is big for going out but you will find that if you go out and drink all night and try to long run the next day you will not only run like crap but you will feel like crap. You won't get anything out of it for many reasons which would be good for another thread.

Endurance running is tough b/c it isn't just the running that is hard it is the lifestyle and the sacrifices that go with it, it is more of a discipline than anything else and fwiw when I was in college I wouldn't have worried about it so it is cool that you are even doing this (why am I assuming you are in college?).

[godofgamblers]

When I first started running track I probably had an equally hard time as you. I personally don't feel I have any natural talent at running or endurance in general, and I think 20 minutes is very attainable after 5-6 months of training. You'll get very solid results that'll definitely get you at 25 within 2-3 months if you keep at your plan. The only thing that might be a problem is your height, I rarely see 6ft+ people run well at distance events. For 20 minutes though, you should be fine. I also think a 5k/off/5k/off/off/10k would be better than 2k/5k/2k thing.

[00Snitch]

Actually, something else I was wondering, has to do with style, or technique I supose. Keeping in mind I have never done any running of any distance before.

In a nutshell, "how" should I run?

While I'm running, I try and keep my upper body quite still, especially my head, it seems like form and posture are important in every other sport, so I figured I would apply the same theory to running. Yes? I think I lean forward while a little I'm running. Bad?

The other thing I notice is that my stride doesn't seem to be too consistant. Sometimes I have a sort of small shuffle type thing going on, other times its more like a long sort of bounding type stride. I assume it is natuarl, but my stride lengthens when I'm going down hill and shortens when I am going up hill. Also, I notice when my legs start getting tired, I nearly fall to a shuffle and I have to make a concious effor to step out a bit further. Is all this normal and acceptable/good?

Should I concentrate on having a longer, slower type stride, or shorter and faster? Are there even different techniques to running? I figure sprinters would be really working on lenthening their stride by picking up their knees and stretching out. What do you do for more endurance type things?

Also I figure breathing is probably really important, but I don't really know what you do with this?

I guess the last question is my psychology. But what do you all think about when you are running? Do you even think about anything? I kinda zone out and try not to think too much.

Thanks again.

[ QUOTE ]

why am I assuming you are in college


[/ QUOTE ]

Must be the drinking /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I'm about 2 years out. Working full time.

[ QUOTE ]

I personally don't feel I have any natural talent at running or endurance in general


[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually part of the reasons I am doing this, I feel I am in the same boat in terms of natural talent. But I don't feel like there is anything I shouldn't be able to do (physically or mentally) to a moderate level. So I like finding things that I can't do, setting a moderate sort of goal and going for it.

My last conquest was sodoku. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I went from never having done one in my life to being able to crack out "easy" type ones (SHD 75ish - 80 or 90) pretty quick (half an hour or so), moderate ones and the occasional hard one. This was over about 3-4 weeks.

I certainly have not goals of competition and don't plan on making any great lifestyle changes or sacrfices, hence why I set moderate level targets.

[godofgamblers]

Your arms should pump with your legs, as long as your shoulders aren't jiggling around and your upper body is straight, you're fine. Generally you want longer slower strides; though I know some excellent runners that have pretty short striders. The length of your stride isn't as important in distance running as it is for sprinting.

It's natural to have bigger strides going downhill and smaller ones uphill since you're expending different amounts of energy and the ground is different elevation, but you should try never to slow down to a shuffle when you start getting tired. That usually means you're not pacing yourself well. Run enough and you'll know the pace you have to run at and won't fall into the shuffling problem.

When I run, I usually just admire scenery, but most of the time I'm too tired to think of anything too deep, it'll probably slow you down if you do.

[tdarko]

00Snitch,

Don't bound when you are running long distance, you expend too much energy this way. You should have a heel to toe strike or flat-foot position, meaning the heel should strike first then the forefoot or they can strike at the same time. The wrong way is the forefoot striking first or running on your toes, this is what you do for sprints but terrible for endurance and increases chance of injury--causes more stress on the foot. If you are bounding a lot of the time it is b/c of a forefoot land.

As for the bounding the more excessive the movement of the body upward and downward, the less efficient you are. It takes energy to displace the body vertically, and this energy is excessive therefore wasted. You want your energy to go toward propelling you forward. A good cue to use to know if you are bouncing or moving forward is to focus on an object in front of you, if that object is appears to be moving up and down then your vertical movement is excessive, the less the object is bouncing the more you are propelling forward and not wasting energy.

A slight forward lean is correct. When running hills make sure you lean into the direction of the hill, for instance if you are running uphill--lean forward into the hill, lift the knees a little higher and the hill becomes easier. When headed downhill make sure you don't lean back which can be a tendency, it is terrible for you knees.

One thing I am real bad about is tightening my shoulders and keeping my arms too high, this is wasted energy too. I will catch myself doing this and shake them out and lower them, it makes a big difference.

[00Snitch]

Awsome, that all makes sense. Thanks tdarko and godofgamlbers.

[Mike Jett]

[ QUOTE ]
Awsome, that all makes sense. Thanks tdarko and godofgamlbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in about the same boat as you, but I didn't really look to 2p2 for my advice as trustingly. Tdarko echoed a ton of very solid information that I read while doing my research, but I figured I'd give you the best link I bookmarked to help you out.

It has a bunch of articles written towards beginning runners, and only slightly contradicts some of the advice given so far in this thread. One thing that stood out was just the scheduling. You really need to be careful, i've gathered, about running back to back days when you're first starting out.

The general consensus was that this is one of the major leading causes of injuries in beginners.

Here's my favorite page so far:

Cool Running - New Runners (http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/index.shtml)

Good luck with it.

[spacetime]

25 minutes is very doable for a 23 year old male.

I would recommend cutting the cigarettes out immediately.

The 5k is a primarily aerobic event (With oxygen). Therefore, most of your training for a 5k run should be focusing on this. While there are many factors not being considered (genetics, sleep, nutrition, toughness), By just doing your schedule (2k/5k alternating) for a month or 2, it would be reasonable to assume that you are going to be able to drop your untrained 5k time of 32 minutes by a good amount. Whether you will be able to get to 25min is entirely up to you. I would suggest making one of your days a bit longer then the others (called the "long run" by runners). Try and get up to doing 10k or so on this day.

20 minutes would require a great deal more training considering where you are at right now. Ill post some examples of this if you would like.

[00Snitch]

[ QUOTE ]
I would suggest making one of your days a bit longer then the others (called the "long run" by runners). Try and get up to doing 10k or so on this day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, based on other posts, I revised me schedule to look like this:

mon - 2km
tue - 5km
wed - 2km
thu - off
frid - off
sat - this eventually will be my longer distance, I guess I will aim for 10km, but I think until I can more comfortably run 5km, I will stick to that for a while
sun - off

I also play touch football on wed night. indoor soccer on saturday and cricket on sunday.

[ QUOTE ]

Ill post some examples of this if you would like


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, thanks.

[AmazingBlender]

You should be able to get down to 24-26 in a week of that training. since that would be about 8 min miles.
20 miles is very doable as long as you loose some weight.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the all the advice. Common themes seem to be:
1) Don't do four days straight
2) Add in some longer distance
3) 25mins should be doable with a few months training
4) 20mins is probably not doable with out a significant amount of work


[/ QUOTE ]

There's some good advice in this thread, but I don't think anyone has hit on the optimal training plan.

I think a novice running can utilize the same training programs that seem to be well established.

Tue-Speed work on a track. 200 meter sprints/pickups followed by 200 meter walk. Do a low number to start with, like even just 3 or 4 and add a couple each week. 10 minute warm up and cool down.

Wed-off

Thur-Hill repeats or longer intervals depending on where you live. Again 10 minute warmup/cooldown. (If you live near hills, do them for 2 months, then add in a longer interval session..work up to 3-4 minute intervals at or near race pace.)

Fri-off

Sat - long run. start out at 40 minutes and add 10 min each week. Alternate jog/walk. Most important is time, not how much you run.

Sun or Mon - 20-30 minutes real easy if you feel like it.

Every 4th week take a break and just do easy stuff. And throw in some 5k races - they are the best training of all.


I think this sort of plan also has the advantage of not feeling like it's "work". The focus is on training and it's broken up into different facets.

I think that pretty much anyone that isn't physically handicapped could get themselves in good enough shape to run 20 minute 5k, but you could be looking at something that would take you 3-4 years to reach.

Depending on how much fat you have to lose, 25 minutes could take a while too. But the harder it is, the more rewarding to accomplish.

[Rolon]

Speed work for a 5k? Really? I think you could get down to 20 mins easy if you just cranked out 5 miles a day at 75%-90%. Sort of an unorthodox traning schedule but thats how I did and it worked pretty well. Do that for a month and a half and BOOM, you are fine.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
Speed work for a 5k? Really? I think you could get down to 20 mins easy if you just cranked out 5 miles a day at 75%-90%. Sort of an unorthodox traning schedule but thats how I did and it worked pretty well. Do that for a month and a half and BOOM, you are fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Lydiard

I would also suggest working your long run up to 1.5 to 2 hrs to run your best time.

I think those are the two biggest mistakes people make the most not long enough runs for a long run of the week and not fast enough intervals.