Lindgrens WPT book is horrible

[PokerPaul]

i have to say im really disappointed in the book the wpt/erick lindgren put our recently "making the QPT Final table".

It supposed to be a guide on how to succeed at big no limit holdem tournaments, and they brought it out just in time for Xmas.

I respect him as a player and the success he has had, so i thought i'd read the book to understand how he approaches these event.

I swear the book is only about 120 pages long, with maybe 20 pages worth of useful poker analysis and hand examples, and even they are mostly common sense or knowledge.

Other than that it looks and if they quickly put together some half ass poker book, slapped a big name on there and the WPT logo, and i guess they hope people who don't know much about poker but recognize the WPt logo might buy it as a gift for someone else who's into poker.

at least harrington put in tons of work, situational analysis, positional and all, with tons of well described hands and background logic into his book that players can get something out of it.

This book is pure propaganda to take advantage of the poker boom without putting much into it.

I am disappointed in erick....

[Gelford]

Nah .. it is just a book on basic strategy for noobs. And it fullfills this job fine and in the process is an easy read and cheap


You expected too much, but that's your mistake /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[boscoboy]

and you thought this would be good..why?? please explain why you were waiting for THIS book to get serious with your reading.

[lemonPeel]

[ QUOTE ]
i have to say im really disappointed in the book the wpt/erick lindgren put our recently "making the QPT Final table".

It supposed to be a guide on how to succeed at big no limit holdem tournaments, and they brought it out just in time for Xmas.

I respect him as a player and the success he has had, so i thought i'd read the book to understand how he approaches these event.

I swear the book is only about 120 pages long, with maybe 20 pages worth of useful poker analysis and hand examples, and even they are mostly common sense or knowledge.

Other than that it looks and if they quickly put together some half ass poker book, slapped a big name on there and the WPT logo, and i guess they hope people who don't know much about poker but recognize the WPt logo might buy it as a gift for someone else who's into poker.

at least harrington put in tons of work, situational analysis, positional and all, with tons of well described hands and background logic into his book that players can get something out of it.

This book is pure propaganda to take advantage of the poker boom without putting much into it.

I am disappointed in erick....

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so bad about it? If you got at least one thing out of it, then it can't be that bad. What were you expecting? It was going to turn you into Erick Lindgren or something?

[PokerPaul]

have you read it?

im not expecting to be the next poker star after reading it, but christ a little more input would have been appreciated.

If you think its great, thats fine too. For me, i was disappointed.

[ECDub]

I was just the opposite. I didn't think it would be all that good, but it was cheap, so I picked it up. It is short and looks thrown together and there is a lot of wasted pages, but I still thought it was really good. The stuff Lindgren wrote was good. I don't know how much it will help a noob, but it was good. Here is an amazon review I thought was really well written:

This book is not a beginners book. If you're looking for a list of which hands to play, basic odds or old war stories from the likes of Doyle & Co, go find other books that are closer to your level of interest in the game. Eric's book is indeed a manual that's very deep in its content. Most of the folks who read it won't really even understand what he's trying to say. That's not to say he's not a great writer (cuz he is); it's more that he's simply speaking to you as if you're already a great player. A lot of books have quotes about them that say something like, "this will take your game to the next level" and then end up rehashing the same basic tools that all their competition books explain. But this book truly does notch up your game, helping you think of hands and the players behind them in a much more complete fashion.

Eric's style of solid poker playing is much more than mere agression. It's understanding when agression is correct, and when it's not. A number of the ideas in this book are brand new, including tips on how to size people up before even sitting down, why and how to keep the pots small (he suggests not overbetting), and so much more.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
I was just the opposite. I didn't think it would be all that good, but it was cheap, so I picked it up. It is short and looks thrown together and there is a lot of wasted pages, but I still thought it was really good. The stuff Lindgren wrote was good. I don't know how much it will help a noob, but it was good. Here is an amazon review I thought was really well written:

This book is not a beginners book. If you're looking for a list of which hands to play, basic odds or old war stories from the likes of Doyle & Co, go find other books that are closer to your level of interest in the game. Eric's book is indeed a manual that's very deep in its content. Most of the folks who read it won't really even understand what he's trying to say. That's not to say he's not a great writer (cuz he is); it's more that he's simply speaking to you as if you're already a great player. A lot of books have quotes about them that say something like, "this will take your game to the next level" and then end up rehashing the same basic tools that all their competition books explain. But this book truly does notch up your game, helping you think of hands and the players behind them in a much more complete fashion.

Eric's style of solid poker playing is much more than mere agression. It's understanding when agression is correct, and when it's not. A number of the ideas in this book are brand new, including tips on how to size people up before even sitting down, why and how to keep the pots small (he suggests not overbetting), and so much more.

[/ QUOTE ]

+1

People play way too tight early in live poker tournaments. Perhaps it's because you are sitting with a group of strangers. Perhaps because of the gap concept. In any event, Erick's book was the first to describe the loose way to play early tournament poker that some of the better pros utilize (Negreanu, etc).

IMO you have to see a lot of flops early when it is cheap and the bad players are still around, particularly in position. You have to create the image that you could hold any two cards at any time.

Example: I limped 96 offsuit on the button in Biloxi last year when a big stack limped in early position, and another big stack was in the big blind. It was an implied odds/position play. Flop comes 666. Turn is K and river is A. Checked to river, when open limper bets, and I raise. He calls "to keep me honest".

A few hands later, I move all in on the flop with JT on a board of T97 with two spades. A guy with TT99 thinks awhile, and folds, citing the 96 hand earlier as his rationale that I must have flopped the straight. The 96 hand created an image that allowed me to move someone off top 2 pair!

Meanwhile, the guy that "kept me honest" went on tilt and busted 15 minutes later.

Another Biloxi example. UTG raises in the first level to 3xBB with AK. There are 2 callers, and I call on the button with Q7s. Flop is A77. He bets. Folded to me, I call. Turn is blank. He bets, I call. River is blank. He checks, I go all in, he calls.

As he was leaving, he was calling me a fish for playing Q7 yada yada, but IMO he is the fish for committing his whole stack with 1 pair early in a tournament out of position, especially with two 7s on the board.

Anyway, Lindgren's book is worth the money if you plan to play live tournaments.

[Uppercut]

[ QUOTE ]
i have to say im really disappointed in the book the wpt/erick lindgren put our recently "making the QPT Final table".

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I would bother buying a book with that title, but that's just me. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jhub30]

I thought it was a good book. It was a lot different than any other poker book because of his style of play. Please realize this book costs like $10. It is well worth the $. I have done very well in MTTs online using his strategy. I previously struggled playing MTTs. I think his style of play in MTTs is definitely a lot more profitable than Harrington's. Don't get me wrong, I think Harrington's books were the best poker books ever written & I can't wait for the 3rd one but I believe the super aggressive style is the way to go in MTTs.

[npc]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is an amazon review I thought was really well written:

Eric's book is indeed a manual that's very deep in its content.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think the book was bad or anything, but one thing it's NOT is deep. I think the Amazon review you quoted is a bit much.

[Copernicus]

I couldnt disagree more. This is a book that bears reading and rereading if you want insight into small ball. It is so far superior to DN's "advanced" DVD section which puports to talk about small ball but falls way short of Edog's book.

While there is some fluff (eg the last chapter on handling the money you win, paying taxes, etc) I think the sections on post-flop play are as important to small ball as HoH 1 is on TAG.

[ECDub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is an amazon review I thought was really well written:

Eric's book is indeed a manual that's very deep in its content.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think the book was bad or anything, but one thing it's NOT is deep. I think the Amazon review you quoted is a bit much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering the title of the thread is "Lindgrens WPT book is horrible", I figured I would show another extreme opinion. I posted here a while back asking, "Is this book any good." I read it and couldn't really determine. Seemed a little crazy, I wasn't sure if it would be effective. When I read it again, I thought it was really good and picked up on some of the finer points.

I am not sure what you mean by "it is NOT deep." I think he shed some light on the modern aggressive style people face in tournaments and the rational behind it very nicely. The fact it is written by a WPT champ, put out by the WPT, there is tons of WPT advertisement and useless WPT info in the book, and Lindgren's section is really short make it easy to disregard as people trying to make a buck. The book was so short, they had to get Matros to throw (what appears to be) some of his old Cardplayer poker math articles in the end to take some space. Even after all of that, the book is surprisingly good and a steal for the price.

[Beavis68]

I found the book to be very good, not a guide for noobs. Matt Mattros' section at the end is also good.

[zoobird]

I agree. Not as complete a book as Harrington, but I started playing a lot better after reading it and incorporating some Lindgren's ideas. Definitely more fluff than I'd like, but still enough value to be well worth the $ and the time spent reading it several times.

[npc]

[ QUOTE ]

I am not sure what you mean by "it is NOT deep."

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured this would be fairly self-explanatory.

The body of the book is 129 pages with pictures, a lot of expository, and a lot of white space between lines. Frankly, it would be hard to cover in depth what I do on a Sunday morning in this many words.

The book introduces a bunch of really interesting topics, but the coverage of them is too superficial for my tastes. Lindgren suggests some strategies, but it's not hard to come up with couter-strategies to these, and these issues aren't addressed.

The book is okay, some good ideas are discussed, but the authors didn't put in the effort to fully address the issues they raise. This is the difference between this mediocre offering and, say, Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book". It's just not thorough.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

The basic thrust of the book is that tournament poker is about amassing chips and not about survival. If you can't get past that simple statement, you're probably not going to enjoy the book. On the other hand, if you want some psychological insights into how looser, more aggressive tournament players think, you might get something out of it even if you have no interest in playing that style.

[ECDub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am not sure what you mean by "it is NOT deep."

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured this would be fairly self-explanatory.

The body of the book is 129 pages with pictures, a lot of expository, and a lot of white space between lines. Frankly, it would be hard to cover in depth what I do on a Sunday morning in this many words.

The book introduces a bunch of really interesting topics, but the coverage of them is too superficial for my tastes. Lindgren suggests some strategies, but it's not hard to come up with couter-strategies to these, and these issues aren't addressed.

The book is okay, some good ideas are discussed, but the authors didn't put in the effort to fully address the issues they raise. This is the difference between this mediocre offering and, say, Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book". It's just not thorough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it was a "mediocre offering" considering all the white space between lines. But your example of deep and thorough book is Gordon's LGB? Really?

[SlantNGo]

[ QUOTE ]
Another Biloxi example. UTG raises in the first level to 3xBB with AK. There are 2 callers, and I call on the button with Q7s. Flop is A77. He bets. Folded to me, I call. Turn is blank. He bets, I call. River is blank. He checks, I go all in, he calls.

As he was leaving, he was calling me a fish for playing Q7 yada yada, but IMO he is the fish for committing his whole stack with 1 pair early in a tournament out of position, especially with two 7s on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally unrelated, but when was "the fish" supposed to get away from his hand here?

[npc]

[ QUOTE ]
But your example of deep and thorough book is Gordon's LGB? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe that Lindgren's book was deeper than LGB then I'm afraid we're unlikely to have a fruitful discussion regarding poker books.

[playerzero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another Biloxi example. UTG raises in the first level to 3xBB with AK. There are 2 callers, and I call on the button with Q7s. Flop is A77. He bets. Folded to me, I call. Turn is blank. He bets, I call. River is blank. He checks, I go all in, he calls.

As he was leaving, he was calling me a fish for playing Q7 yada yada, but IMO he is the fish for committing his whole stack with 1 pair early in a tournament out of position, especially with two 7s on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally unrelated, but when was "the fish" supposed to get away from his hand here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without knowing stack sizes, bet sizes, and pot size, who knows?

[bookie socks]

I don't think the book is horrible. I mean it's not HOH, LGB or SS but it does have information that has been useful to me. It also didn't cost me as much as those others. It's alot less complicated than HOH or SS. +EV

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another Biloxi example. UTG raises in the first level to 3xBB with AK. There are 2 callers, and I call on the button with Q7s. Flop is A77. He bets. Folded to me, I call. Turn is blank. He bets, I call. River is blank. He checks, I go all in, he calls.

As he was leaving, he was calling me a fish for playing Q7 yada yada, but IMO he is the fish for committing his whole stack with 1 pair early in a tournament out of position, especially with two 7s on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally unrelated, but when was "the fish" supposed to get away from his hand here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without knowing stack sizes, bet sizes, and pot size, who knows?

[/ QUOTE ]

First level. 2000 starting chips. 25-25 blinds. AK makes it 75 to go. 2 callers then me. 4 see the flop - 325 in pot. He bets 250 on the flop. I call. He bets 400 on turn, I call. He checks river, and I go all in for 1250 more.

The fish is supposed to realize that with 2 sevens on the board, his two pair might be no good when he gets a caller on the flop, and is definitely no good when his bigger turn bet is called.

If I were in his shoes, I go into check-call mode after the flop and try to keep the pot small if possible.

[Piers]

I would recommend the book.

It is obviously an ego book; ‘here is how I play look how brilliant I am’. However Erick is obviously a good player who understands NLH tournaments. I think he succeeds in getting this understanding across to a receptive reader. It could give the right reader the insight to move their NLH tournament play up to the next level.

However I think he will go over the head of a lot of readers, who will just see the egocentric bits and come to the conclusion that you stated.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Paul:

The book is much better than awful. On my review system it gets a 7 (out of 10).

Best wishes,
Mason

[Cactus Jack]

You could do worse than studying HOH, Lindgren and the Little Green Book, playing a thousand tournaments, and finding your way of playing within this framework. I wouldn't want to play you. Think like Greenstein, and you're a power to be reckoned with. There is some very impressive works out there now, for someone who is a real student. FT definitely fits in there.

CJ

[RowdyZ]

Kill Phil for Long ball
Lindgren for small ball

Gordons LGb and DVD for how a pro thinks

TPFAP for a general overall strategy

Hoh 1&2 for in depth understanding

RZ

[mephisto]

The funny thing about these threads and I don't think I'm alone on saying this is that based on the heated debate on this book, I bought it out of sheer curiosity.

lol, anyone else do the same?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi mephisto:

I agree. It's my opinion that this website is the initial major driver of poker book sales no matter who the author or the publisher. Part (or perhaps most) of the reason for this is that discussion here is picked up and repeated in many other locations including simple word of mouth. Nothing drives the sales of a poker book better than having successful players speak positively about it.

Best wishes,
Mason

[shmoosh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is an amazon review I thought was really well written:

Eric's book is indeed a manual that's very deep in its content.

[/ QUOTE ]



I didn't think the book was bad or anything, but one thing it's NOT is deep. I think the Amazon review you quoted is a bit much.

[/ QUOTE ]


Although I liked the book I agree that that particular review was a little over the top. As I recall the title said something to the effect of "Anything less than a 5 star rating for this book only shows your lack of the basics" This person was campaigning pretty hard for this book.
However there were some sections where concepts needed to be unpacked and thought about in more detail to fully benefit from. The material was fairly condensed, it may have seemed less deep if the content was expanded upon.

[derosnec]

This book is terrible for online tournaments.

Erik's theme is deception. Mini-raise UTG with AA, 78s, etc. Well, with a starting stack of 1,500 chips, you're gonna get killed doing this online.

Over and over, Erik justifies his play for its "deception" and "image." Well, online, image isn't worth much. Chances are a) you won't be at the table long enough, b) your opponents aren't paying attention (tv, porn, etc) and c) most of your opponents are donkeys who will call your push/reraise holding only middle-pair or Ace high.

Alot of his "deception" stuff is just not going to work. He says makes a "small" lead bet when out of position on the flop when he is on a draw to "deceive" his opponent. Uh, just about every player online builds a pot with this play. He's not fooling anyone into thinking he has a monster hand on the flop.

There are many other examples of bad advice here for online tournaments.

For deepstack live tournaments, it's a good book. Online though, the donkeys will eat you up following his advice.

[smbruin22]

[ QUOTE ]
For deepstack live tournaments, it's a good book. Online though, the donkeys will eat you up following his advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's the problem... all these big-time authors play against really good players and/or in huge tournaments...

harrington has different favorite tactics, but basically suffers from same problem (assumes good opponents and large tournaments).. yes, he has some problems where he says SNG but i'm not sure he has lived the essence of the darn things.

[ECDub]

Scott Fischman's online poker book comes out soon and I know he has played with his share of bad online players and knows how to deal with them. His book might fill the gap that some of the big time players have missed.

[RowdyZ]

3 Things.

1. He says the book is for deep stack live tournaments, WPT events actually. How to make the final table of a WPT event.

2. Eric was one of if not the first online player to become a successful live tournament player. So I am sure his knowledge of how to play online is at least as good as Fischmans.

3. Judge the book againist what it was written for not what you wanted it to be for.


RZ

RZ

[ECDub]

[ QUOTE ]
3 Things.

1. He says the book is for deep stack live tournaments, WPT events actually. How to make the final table of a WPT event.

2. Eric was one of if not the first online player to become a successful live tournament player. So I am sure his knowledge of how to play online is at least as good as Fischmans.

3. Judge the book againist what it was written for not what you wanted it to be for.


RZ

RZ

[/ QUOTE ]

I've liked the book all along. I never said it was intended for online play. I was just mentioning Fischman's book is probably going to address some of the issues the previous poster had mentioned was lacking in the Lindgren book. Fischman's book is specifically focused on online poker. Lindgren's book was focused on making the final table of a WPT event obviously.

[RedGladiator]

[ QUOTE ]



I swear the book is only about 120 pages long,

[/ QUOTE ]

amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/006076306X/sr=8-6/qid=1155221744/ref=sr_1_6/202-4207275-5275038?ie=UTF8&s=gateway)

amazon.co.uk says 224 pages, amazon.con says 208.

can someone please tell me the actual page count?

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



I swear the book is only about 120 pages long,

[/ QUOTE ]

amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/006076306X/sr=8-6/qid=1155221744/ref=sr_1_6/202-4207275-5275038?ie=UTF8&s=gateway)

amazon.co.uk says 224 pages, amazon.con says 208.

can someone please tell me the actual page count?

[/ QUOTE ]

Page numbers in mine go to page 191 with the page numbering starting at chapter 1 and going to the end of the index. There are additional pages (T of C,forward, preface and introduction) at the front that aren't numbered or are numbered with roman numerals. Depending on what they count I'd say the 208 pages is a reasonable number.

Al

[JackCase]

[ QUOTE ]


amazon.co.uk says 224 pages, amazon.con says 208.



[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is because of the exchange rate. It's 249 pages in Canada.

[ QUOTE ]
can someone please tell me the actual page count?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that going to determine whether or not you buy it?

[RedGladiator]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


amazon.co.uk says 224 pages, amazon.con says 208.



[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is because of the exchange rate. It's 249 pages in Canada.

[ QUOTE ]
can someone please tell me the actual page count?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that going to determine whether or not you buy it?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO /images/graemlins/smile.gif i was going through mason's review and he rates the book a 7 and not higher because of it's short lenght. i found this thread on the search and the OP said it was very short so i looked on amazon, the co.uk and com were different, so they obvioulsy messed up somewhere.

anyway i will be buying the book in anycase.