A Miracle?

[Lestat]

So already they are calling it a miracle that 12 miners survived being trapped in a cave for almost 40 hours. It was against all predictions. The carbon dioxide levels exceeded 3 times the limit for safely sustaining life. But there's one problem...

There were 13 miners in the cave. It appears one of the miners didn't make it and his his family was not blessed with the same miracle his 12 comrades were.

What I want to know is how on earth does a man of the cloth (or any Christian for that matter), explain that to his family and more particularily to his children, while the rest celebrate their miracle?

Maybe this doesn't belong in the philosophy forum, since it doesn't concern a philosophical problem. But I have to ask the question nevertheless to someone who understands Christianity. I think publicly claiming a miracle and shouting "Praise the Lord!", while one family suffers terribly is downright disgusting!

[Pauwl]

Actually, according to cnn.com they messed up and it's actually 12 that died and 1 guy that's in critical condition. This is a very serious screw up.

[luckyme]

A few hours after the event an expert was on TV saying that if the miners followed procedure and were able to barricade a safe spot, they can last quite a while. Sounds like that happened, one wouldn't think that routine mining procedure would be a miracle but, what the hey, they are in short supply these millenia.

Yes, I asked if somebody on CNN would say, "Oh, and thank god for causing the explosion and killing the one guy and allowing the 12 to get back to where they were 2 days ago safe and sound after some much needed excitement in their life."

shucks,gawwwwlieee, luckyme

[Lestat]

Wow, terrible what those families must be going through. What a dangerous job. Think I'll let this thread die. No pun intended.

[BluffTHIS!]

So mocking God and religious belief made an insensitive fool of you. How appropriate.

[Lestat]

First, I most certainly did NOT mock God.

Secondly, I maintain that shouting "Praise the Lord" over your own personal joy, while other's around you are in agony over their loss is absolutely dispicable!!!!!!!!!!

Thirdly, I did not make a fool of myself. I'll mock that forever if that's your Christian belief.

[BluffTHIS!]

And oldie but goodie rhetorical tactic. Accuse the accuser of what you stand accused of.

[Phil153]

People can survive amazing situations. Examples are people who've gone without water for over 2 weeks , submerged in a frozen lake for over 40 minutes, both legs cut off and no medical attention for hours, surviving massive envenomation (enough to kill ten men) from multiple strikes from a large taipan/rattlesnake without medical attention (but getting very sick).

The medical wisdom simply doesn't apply to everyone because every situation is different as is every person's constitution. These things are not miracles at all.

Not to mention the fact that God got them in this situation in the first place /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Nice one, God.

[David Sklansky]

I read his post as being similar to one I posted months ago. It is insensitive at the very least, to publicly attribute good fortune to God if there were tragedies associated with the same event. You disagree with that?

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
What I want to know is how on earth does a man of the cloth (or any Christian for that matter), explain that to his family

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a mockery of God. He was merely pointing out the gross insensitivity of certain Christians.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I read his post as being similar to one I posted months ago. It is insensitive at the very least, to publicly attribute good fortune to God if there were tragedies associated with the same event. You disagree with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Giving thanks to God for blessings receieved, even while others are not so favored and may in fact experience tragedy is very appropriate. This is not the same as being overly giddy and insensitive about it in the presence of those who have lost loved ones though. Among christians, even those who have experienced such a loss should nonetheless be thankful that others were spared the same misfortune.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
Giving thanks to God for blessings receieved, even while others are not so favored and may in fact experience tragedy is very appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, they'd still be trapped in the mine if not for rescue workers. God wouldn't have lifted a finger while they slowly died.

So who should we be thanking again?

[atrifix]

Other good rhetorical tactics include ad hominem arguments, red herrings, personal attacks, and poisoning the well.

[Matt R.]

lol, I'm starting to understand why they call this forum the "train wreck".

First of all, the story was completely wrong (as another poster pointed out) and 12 are dead and 1 is in critical condition.

In the face of this tragedy, because a few people THOUGHT their family member was amazingly still alive and chose to say "praise God" (as that is their personal belief), science, math, and philosophy turns this tragedy into a Christian bashing festival.

Let's think about this. There's some horrible accident. Let's say a plane crash. 99 people are dead, but you find out your father somehow survived -- the lone survivor. You are of course, overjoyed. In spite of the fact that 99 other people died. But, as long as you are atheist it is okay to be overjoyed! But wait.... if you are a Christian and comment, "Thank God you're okay!" you become a heartless criminal against humanity.

People celebrate perceived amazing events in different ways (clearly this wasn't such a great event... due to the news screw up). People who believe in God and aren't as well versed in the science tend to account for miraculous things in terms of God before they say, "Thank organic chemistry that the CO2 levels didn't build up sufficiently!" It's simply a different way of looking at things, different personal beliefs.

As a side note, the hypocrisy of certain atheists just kills me. Many of them constantly get up on their soap box to preach how horrible religious folk are for trying to get others to think the way they do... or bash them for "looking down" on those that don't believe in God. Yet when someone makes a "Praise God" comment in the news due to their being thankful their loved one is still alive, it is somehow twisted into the most heartless comment ever. This is their personal belief, why are you telling them that it's "disgusting"? What do you think your reaction would be if a theist told you that your disbelief in God was "disgusting"?

[JimNashe]

From an article in the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/04/AR2006010400404.html)

I noticed especially the ending:

[ QUOTE ]

"It just shows you enough prayers went out," Bula Smith, 27, said as she clutched her 7-month-old daughter, Cassey, close to her. "It's a miracle."

The crowd gathered outside the church burst into a chorus of "How Great Thou Art" as family and friends threw themselves into each other's arms.

Their euphoria was short-lived.

When the townspeople learned that all but one of the miners were dead, they reacted with anger at International Coal and the news media for the miscommunication.

Then, most left quietly. After 41 hours of sharing hopes and prayers and rejoicing, they chose solitude for their grief.


[/ QUOTE ]

Does the fact that 12 people died instead of surviving mean that not enough prayers were sent out?

I don't think so, because I don't think she literally meant what she said at the beginning of the quote, but rather it was an expression of happiness and a way of creating a closer bond with the community.

And that is all admirable and good, but I also think that if you think that there's a cause-and-effect relationship between praying and someone surviving a disaster, then you must face the fact that the reverse can also be true.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

nm

[Phil153]

The story you quoted is pretty funny.

The fact is that people pray to comfort themselves, and for no other reason. It is an entirely selfish act.

[jthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, because I don't think she literally meant what she said at the beginning of the quote, but rather it was an expression of happiness and a way of creating a closer bond with the community.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I'm sure she believed at the time that their prayers had been "answered".

Believing that prayer has any effectiveness is no different than believing in any other superstition that "works" *sometimes*. What's sad is that they ignore the times when it doesn't "work".

[Zygote]

He looks like a fool?

You see nothing foolish about praising god for putting your love ones in torturous harm and then being so kind as to supposedly spare their lives, while killing another? The new news and change of events only makes these people look more foolish, not Lestat.

[hmkpoker]

Some people are smart enough to minmax their CON and get bonuses for their fortitude saves. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bocablkr]

Unfortunately, it appears that 12 died. Their families all 'prayed' for their safety. Who did they pray to? Did they actually believe god had the power to do anything?

If he did, then why did he let it happen in the first place.

If he did, why didn't he save them?

I have NEVER gotten a good answer to this question - why pray?????

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
why pray?????

[/ QUOTE ]

according to pres Bush, you and they should now pray that the good Lord shows them comfort during their loss.

[behemoth2006]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why pray?????

[/ QUOTE ]

according to pres Bush, you and they should now pray that the good Lord shows them comfort during their loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

People pray because they are deep down unable to handle the fact that the world and universe is completely uncaring and random, and that these awful things can happen to good people.

By the way, in no way was this started as a bashing post (if Im reading OP correctly) however when bluffTHIS got all in arms because he had a kneejerk reaction to the word "god" and a negative in the same sentence, he opened himself up to it.

God is the perfect scapegoat... whatever good things happen are his "fault" but one second later, if those good things turn bad, they are no longer his.

It's amazing what people can believe.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
God is the perfect scapegoat... whatever good things happen are his "fault" but one second later, if those good things turn bad, they are no longer his.

[/ QUOTE ]

All good things do come from God. And God allows bad things to happen because of free will and the natural order of things. Though maybe also He directly causes some of those bad things as well in punishment.

And regarding this thread, I didn't have a kneejerk reaction as the OP's intent was indeed to bash religious belief.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
And God allows bad things to happen because of free will and the natural order of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why is it a miracle when someone comes out alive and not the free will and natural order fo things?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">And regarding this thread, I didn't have a kneejerk reaction as the OP's intent was indeed to bash religious belief. </font>

My intent was to bash the logic of invoking God for a miracle, praising Him for a perceived miracle, then looking the other way when it's tragedy and suffering that takes place.

I also meant to bash the utter insensitivity of anyone who would use God to publicly explain their fortune, while their neighbor(s) suffer the exact opposite. That is nothing less than narcissisism.

Surely you must get this, but I don't expect you to admit it in a million years.

[Borodog]

Reminds me of, "I was doing great until Jesus made me drop the ball."

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
Surely you must get this, but I don't expect you to admit it in a million years.

[/ QUOTE ]

well said. i've always thought bluffthis was too smart to truly believe many of the things he says.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And God allows bad things to happen because of free will and the natural order of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why is it a miracle when someone comes out alive and not the free will and natural order fo things?

[/ QUOTE ]

It *might* have beenn a miracle had those miners been fortunate enough to live because of the extreme unlikelihood of their doing so, because of prayers for same. I am not saying it would have been for sure, just that it could have been possible. I am more skeptical than you might think from my posts here because I am also very scientifically oriented.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> There's some horrible accident. Let's say a plane crash. 99 people are dead, but you find out your father somehow survived -- the lone survivor. You are of course, overjoyed. In spite of the fact that 99 other people died. But, as long as you are atheist it is okay to be overjoyed! But wait.... if you are a Christian and comment, "Thank God you're okay!" you become a heartless criminal against humanity. </font>

It is perfectly acceptable for an atheist or Christian to be overjoyed. What is NOT accpetable is to publicly claim that your fortune was an act of God, while insinuating this same God allowed 99 other people to die and did not care about them!

Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?!!! And you have the audacity to call ME a hyopcrite?!!!! What color is the sky in your world?

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">And regarding this thread, I didn't have a kneejerk reaction as the OP's intent was indeed to bash religious belief. </font>

My intent was to bash the logic of invoking God for a miracle, praising Him for a perceived miracle, then looking the other way when it's tragedy and suffering that takes place.

I also meant to bash the utter insensitivity of anyone who would use God to publicly explain their fortune, while their neighbor(s) suffer the exact opposite. That is nothing less than narcissisism.

Surely you must get this, but I don't expect you to admit it in a million years.

[/ QUOTE ]


What you don't get is the christian way of looking at things. And even though some christians might not be able to look at it this way, we are also supposed to be thankful for all things that come our way, not just the good things, for it is written:

"In all things give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."

And what you also don't get regarding our views, is that we are supposed to have a positive view of things as in cup half full not half empty. A true christian who experienced the death of family member in such a situation would nonetheless be thankful to God for those who were saved from such a fate, even while feeling normal human sadness over their own loss. And you are imputing insensitivity to those who give thanks for graces received that others don't, when that is not the case. They are not saying "ha ha ha my dad was saved by God and yours wasn't". But that is what you are trying to say is happening. That is not so.

And I don't expect you to get all that because you don't have a christian mindset. You only have your own preconceived notions of what such a mindset is or is not. Thus you draw the wrong conclusions from some actions and words of christians.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surely you must get this, but I don't expect you to admit it in a million years.

[/ QUOTE ]

well said. i've always thought bluffthis was too smart to truly believe many of the things he says.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what David thinks about more intelligent christians too, i.e. that their intelligence would cause them to have more doubts. But as I pointed out to him in a thread which was discussing such catholic supreme court justices, the fact that such christians regularly and publicly practice their faith, is in fact evidence that they are more well educated in that faith and have more reasons for their faith .

I believe everything that I say in these forums unless my remarks are obvioulsy sarcastic.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
It *might* have beenn a miracle had those miners been fortunate enough to live because of the extreme unlikelihood of their doing so, because of prayers for same. I am not saying it would have been for sure, just that it could have been possible. I am more skeptical than you might think from my posts here because I am also very scientifically oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a second. If it even might have been then what happens to your support for why god allows bad things to happen? God , obviously, can no longer be allowing bad things to happen just because he respects our free will and natural order so much, but rather because he, seemingly, just feels its necessary to inflict upon us (by passively, having the power and assumed will to save us, watching us suffer)

[Lestat]

You're correct that I did not understand the Christian mindset. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I appreciate you taking the time to shed some light on it. It's unfortunate you couldn't have done this before jumping to conclusions and accusing me of mocking God and bashing Christians. At some point it should become clear to you that what I'm interested in is understanding the logic behind a set of beliefs. Not mocking or bashing the beliefs themselves or a way of life. I'll be the first to admit that I will bash the logic if it makes no sense. I expect no less from someone else if my logic doesn't make sense.

[Lestat]

Good one.

[Matt R.]

Lestat,
With all due respect,

[ QUOTE ]
I think publicly claiming a miracle and shouting "Praise the Lord!", while one family suffers terribly is downright disgusting!

[/ QUOTE ]

When you start using words like disgusting, I hope you understand it looks far more like bashing than it looks like a genuine desire to understand a group's belief. This is most likely why bluffthis (and me, actually) has a problem with much of this thread.

Out of legitimate curiousity -- why did you use a word such as disgusting if your true intent was to understand a set of beliefs? It's very obvious there are a million other ways to state your question without sounding so derogatory.

[BluffTHIS!]

I am not intending to keep a running argument up over your intentions, but I think it was you who jumped to a conclusion first that provoked my reaction by imputing wrong intentions to certain statements of christians. I would suggest that you could instead have phrased the matter as a question as to whether those statments meant such and such a thing and why, rather than asserting that they did.

[Matt R.]

[ QUOTE ]
What is NOT accpetable is to publicly claim that your fortune was an act of God, while insinuating this same God allowed 99 other people to die and did not care about them!

Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?!!! And you have the audacity to call ME a hyopcrite?!!!! What color is the sky in your world?

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost any religous person will tell you that it is someone's "time to go" when that person dies. It is God's choice. They are simply exclaiming that, when their loved one lives under extraordinary circumstances, that they believe God intervened because it was not that person's time to go yet. It is not meant as a "haha, God loves my family member more than yours", which is where you seem to be taking this.

And whether you believe in God or not, everyone does indeed have a "time" to go. If my time with a loved one is extended, I'm happy -- and yes, it is for selfish reasons. It is unfortunate that people have to die, but God doesn't come riding down on his chariot to save every single person because someone wants every single person to live forever.

Basically, in summary, the religous people in this article appear to be happy that their loved one(s) are okay (which happened to be incorrect). They would simply answer that it was "their time to go" for those that did not make it.

PS -- the color of the sky in my world is blue. And yours?

[behemoth2006]

[ QUOTE ]
Lestat,
With all due respect,

[ QUOTE ]
I think publicly claiming a miracle and shouting "Praise the Lord!", while one family suffers terribly is downright disgusting!

[/ QUOTE ]

When you start using words like disgusting, I hope you understand it looks far more like bashing than it looks like a genuine desire to understand a group's belief. This is most likely why bluffthis (and me, actually) has a problem with much of this thread.

Out of legitimate curiousity -- why did you use a word such as disgusting if your true intent was to understand a set of beliefs? It's very obvious there are a million other ways to state your question without sounding so derogatory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure how you're not getting this.

The idea that one person would stand there shouting praise be to the god above, while the next person is shrieking in agony, is absolutely disgusting.

If anyone says it's not, I'd have to see a rationale, as this is incredibly insensitive behavior.

When Lestat (great sn by the way) says something like this, he is effectively stating that this is the way he sees it, and these people are doing it, which means that there might be some rationale. That's the way I read it at least.

He didn't say Christianity was disgusting, or that faith was, or even prayer, just the way that all that was evidenced in the face of another's misfortune.

I would think that Christian or not, the only way to celebrate something like taht would be to gather up your loved ones, and go home and celebrate, having the decency to realize that people around you still are reeling from a tragedy.

[Lestat]

True, and I'll have to re-think how I phrase things. But it truly did appall me and did strike me as disgusting.

I have tremendous compassion for those who lost their loved ones and assumed Christains are supposed to be ever so more compassionate. It didn't strike me as a compassionate way to behave. On the contrary, it seemed the epitome of being uncompationate towards your fellow man.

If BluffThis is correct and those Christians who lost loved ones willingly accept their misfortune right along side someone rejoicing in their God-given fortune then I stand corrected. It just didn't seem right to me.

[Matt R.]

behemoth,
For an example:

"Hi, I don't understand why Christians do this. Don't you think it would hurt those around them whose loved ones DID die for them to be praising God in this situation?"

See? I didn't have to use disgusting in this phrasing. And my "true" intention of understanding another group's beliefs comes across perfectly. There are a million other ways I could have written this as well.

See my other post for my explanation on why it is okay for a theist to say something like this in the face of tragedy for others (it doesn't appear that you've read it yet). But again, really quickly, it should be just as "disgusting" to be happy your loved one is okay if someone else is suffering regardless of whether your believe in God or not. Attributing your good fortune to God's intervention or random chance should not change this. It seems like everyone thinks the Christian mindset is that if God saved my family member, then he likes me/my family better. This isn't the case.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
by imputing wrong intentions to certain statements of christians.

[/ QUOTE ]

It should be noted that a lot of the intentions were disgraceful. I dont know if you heard the testimony of John Casto, a man in the church, earlier on CNN, but he described that once the news was realized, and after the initial joy, the pastor attempted to begin prayers to mourn for the one loss. However, the pastor's efforts gained little support and was overshadowed by excessive noise and partying. Yes, those who lost someone will should still be happy for those who were saved, but likewise, those who were saved have an onus to show respect to those who lost.

[behemoth2006]

As a devout catholic for nearly all my life, I completely understand the "ideal" Christian mindset.

I also understand exactly where you're coming from expecting Lestat to ask in a much more mundane and copacetic way. However, he perceived the actions he saw as disgusting, prompting him to post on 2p2. I think there may be some oversensitivity on both sides, and it explains the reaction he saw from bluffTHIS and yourself.

I read it as "Wow, the way Im seeing this is totally awful. What possible reason could they have for acting that way."

It seems you saw "Wow, those disgusting christians are at it again, Billy, get the hose!"

It's all in perceptions.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">What I want to know is how on earth does a man of the cloth (or any Christian for that matter), explain that to his family and more particularily to his children, while the rest celebrate their miracle? </font>

The above was the way I worded my question. I think that's a polite and diplomatic way to phrase a question. I don't think that's too disrepectful, do you?

<font color="blue"> I think publicly claiming a miracle and shouting "Praise the Lord!", while one family suffers terribly is downright disgusting!
</font>

This is my personal opinion on the matter. You don't have to agree with it, but nowhere am I mocking God or bashing Christians.

[Matt R.]

behemoth and lestat,
Fair enough. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't use the word "disgusting" when talking about another group's beliefs, and not expect for said group to take offense to it (I'm sure you can see why). But anyway, I understand what you guys are getting at.

Let me briefly state that I don't have what most would call "traditional" Christian beliefs. So some fundamentalists may disagree with me here, but I doubt it. I see death as natural... not a bad thing in any way. The pain from death comes from selfish reasons -- the desire to keep those deceased with you, i.e. you want to be able to see them again. When the religious people in the article attribute the saving of their loved one to God, they are thanking God for allowing them to continue to spend time with that person. If they had lost their loved one, the "proper" Christian mindset would be to accept it and still be happy for those who were saved. I think the reason you find it disgusting is that it appears they are rubbing their good fortune in the face of those who did not have such good fortune. They are not, in the same way that a non-religous person is still happy when good things happen to him/her, while conveniently (at least momentarily) not feeling bad that not everyone had the same good fortune. I believe that your mindset is that Christians view death as a "punishment". In other words, the one person that died in the mine wreckage was somehow being punished by God because he wasn't as good as the others. A Christian would simply say "No, it was his time to go."

Of course I'm not sure that those quoted in the article have the same views. But, I think, a "good" Christian would thank God for the "miraculous" circumstances which allowed their loved one to be saved. While, at the same time, realizing that God chose to take those who did not make it. If you view death as natural, and not as God punishing those that who were not saved, I think you can see how a religious person thanking God in the face of perceived tragedy for others isn't quite so bad.

Edit -- By the way, I don't necessarily believe that God's intervention has anything to do with the perceived miracle in this instance (ignoring the fact that the news story was completely wrong). That being said, my above explanation is why I think "thanking God" in situations such as this is not a bad thing.

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like everyone thinks the Christian mindset is that if God saved my family member, then he likes me/my family better. This isn't the case .



[/ QUOTE ]

Then what is the case? Why did one familie's prayers (to the same entity) get answered and the others didn't? That is the mindset we can't understand. How can you praise god for saving your family member while knowing he had the power to save the others but didn't?

[morphball]

This brings up another question I have had for a long-time. Why does Santa Claus hate poor children?

[IronUnkind]

The sky probably looks a different color to you, eclipsed as it is by the shadows of molehills.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
I see death as natural... not a bad thing in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to say that. What is so bad about death? Nothing, except to those left behind.

To say that “God lets bad things happen because people die” is the part where you truly don’t understand the faith.

Now... God letting people suffer is another issue. I don’t understand that. That doesn’t change my faith... I just don’t understand it. Maybe I will someday, or maybe I’m not supposed to. *shrug* My understanding is that these men didn't suffer. They wrote letters saying they were just going to sleep. So that was more of a general thought, not pertaing to these men.

[Lestat]

Matt-

This is actually a good explanation and I appreciate you attempting to answer my question. You are correct that I did look at such proclamations as a kind of slap in the face or rubbing one's good fortune in the face of another who was not so fortunate. As BluffThis has already pointed out, I do not automatically see things from the Christian mindset. Believe it or not, it does make some sense to me now (at least I can understand the logic if what you guys say is correct).

My only regret is that everything I say is immediately jumped upon as scoffing, mocking, or bashing. Almost as if you guys WANT to believe that's my only intent. Had BlufThis' 2nd post and this post of yours been made before your first posts, we could have avoided a lot of senseless bickering.

[behemoth2006]

hey hey, none of my bickering was pointless!

I have to ask you guys to be completely honest with me on this one: if you were the family of the one thought dead and heard all that rejoicing, you're telling me that you wouldn't get the teensy bit po'd?

Unless you have acheived that Gigabet 'butterfly-on-your-shoulder' calm, I really have a hard time believing that. Your family member is the only one dead, the only one not spared, and yet you would be ever so grateful that the others were spared?

It just sounds a little too pastel perfect for me.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
hey hey, none of my bickering was pointless!

I have to ask you guys to be completely honest with me on this one: if you were the family of the one thought dead and heard all that rejoicing, you're telling me that you wouldn't get the teensy bit po'd?

Unless you have acheived that Gigabet 'butterfly-on-your-shoulder' calm, I really have a hard time believing that. Your family member is the only one dead, the only one not spared, and yet you would be ever so grateful that the others were spared?

It just sounds a little too pastel perfect for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure your question isn't directed at me, but this is exactly why I thought it was incredibly insensitive. I still don't agree with Matt's and BluffThis' explanation (of course I wouldn't being an atheist), but they did at least spell out the logic of it.

As to your question, even as an atheist I would be happy for those families who were spared the grief I would be going through, but....

I could see someone getting violent if others thanked God right in front of him for "their" miracle, while they saw he was suffering the loss of his loved one. This perhaps might be ever more understandable if he were a Christian, I don't know.

[behemoth2006]

I just wish one of them would have come out and said something along the lines of...

"Yes that was insensitive as heck. They messed up, in their joy they didn't consider the pain of those around them"

I personally dont feel the need to defend every atheist... crap, I hate some of them, so I don't know why you guys felt the need to defend them.

But hey, different strokes, right?

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wish one of them would have come out and said something along the lines of...
"Yes that was insensitive as heck. They messed up, in their joy they didn't consider the pain of those around them"

[/ QUOTE ]

I can’t speak for everyone... But personally, I didn’t say that because I didn’t see them do it “right in front of him” as quoted below. I am very used to atheists taking things, and adding to them to try to make Christians seem “evil.” I don’t know if that is the case here... it’s just something I am accustomed to. Therefore, I just take that kind of thing with a grain of salt.

[ QUOTE ]
...if others thanked God right in front of him for "their" miracle, while they saw he was suffering the loss of his loved one.

[/ QUOTE ]

[malorum]

[ QUOTE ]
And regarding this thread, I didn't have a kneejerk reaction as the OP's intent was indeed to bash religious belief.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not fair. You should engage with the question it's addressed fully in scripture.

In John 9 the narrative related the story of a man blind from birth. The religious authorities ascribe the blindness to either the mans sin or to his parents sin.
Jesus points out that in this case God made him blind so he could show how powerful he is when Jesus heals him.

The point being is that we should not presume to be able to identify exactly when or for what reason something bad - or something good has happened.

The poster has a valid point. PUBLICLY thanking God for saving your own, while letting others die runs dangerously close to the conduct John 9 warns against.

[MidGe]

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In John 9 the narrative related the story of a man blind from birth. The religious authorities ascribe the blindness to either the mans sin or to his parents sin.

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Seems very fair to me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Jesus points out that in this case God made him blind so he could show how powerful he is when Jesus heals him.

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Ah well, just a matter of sitting and waiting for him to set all current problems right. I am sure all blind people are just waiting to be given the opportunity, and so are all children of sinners, innocent as they may be /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I love xians sense of justice, and, the end justify the means.

[Lestat]

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I just wish one of them would have come out and said something along the lines of...
"Yes that was insensitive as heck. They messed up, in their joy they didn't consider the pain of those around them"

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I can’t speak for everyone... But personally, I didn’t say that because I didn’t see them do it “right in front of him” as quoted below. I am very used to atheists taking things, and adding to them to try to make Christians seem “evil.” I don’t know if that is the case here... it’s just something I am accustomed to. Therefore, I just take that kind of thing with a grain of salt.

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...if others thanked God right in front of him for "their" miracle, while they saw he was suffering the loss of his loved one.

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I'm sure the family of the one known dead miner were aware of the church bells ringing and songs being sang, and news reports of the lady yelling "Praise the Lord!" in the church. My question was simply, "How is this not incredibly insensitive to the family who had lost their loved one?", and "how do you explain the "miracle" to this family while helping them accept their loss?".

I don't know about Christians being "evil" as you put it, but it does look pretty insensitive to me. I thought compassion was supposed to be a Christian virtue.

[miketurner]

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I'm sure the family of the one known dead miner were aware of the church bells ringing and songs being sang, and news reports of the lady yelling "Praise the Lord!" in the church. My question was simply, "How is this not incredibly insensitive to the family who had lost their loved one?", and "how do you explain the "miracle" to this family while helping them accept their loss?".

I don't know about Christians being "evil" as you put it, but it does look pretty insensitive to me. I thought compassion was supposed to be a Christian virtue.

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Well, I’m pretty sure we are both going on partial information here. If you are directly involved and seen things first hand, I’m sure you would have said that by now. So I am making the assumption that their were Christians also mourning along side of the grieving family members. Perhaps even the person that you saw in the church, perhaps others. I feel confident in that assumption, because that is the way it would be in my community. We are probably not all that different.

This is certainly a complicated issue... but my short answer is, I don’t think there is ever a “bad” time to praise God. Tony Dungy praised God publically after his son hanged himself. I thought that was awesome and inspiring!

[godBoy]

I am sure that my next comment will be percieved as incredibly insensitive but.. The miners worked in the mine well aware of the dangers of their work, was this disaster caused by human error? Not taking the right cautions, or is God to blame again.

What if it were a circus freak juggling chainsaws? Would the same questions of God allowing us to suffer be raised?

[MidGe]

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I am sure that my next comment will be percieved as incredibly insensitive but.. The miners worked in the mine well aware of the dangers of their work, was this disaster caused by human error? Not taking the right cautions, or is God to blame again.

What if it were a circus freak juggling chainsaws? Would the same questions of God allowing us to suffer be raised?

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Yes, incredibly sensitive! I am absolutely dismayed and think you may border on the pathological.

Why did those guys have to choose this dangerous job? Bill Gates didn't have to. His son won't.

You are better to stop using anything whose manufacturing may be dependent on the work those people were doing.

Honestly, it is posts like this that force me to respond to you in the way I do. I sincerely hope and belive that your type of faith is shared by very few. If not, well, we will need more than a god to help us.

To all believers on this board, I sincerely believe your faith has a bit more maturity, but please accept my usual derisive commnents, as justified, in the light of this type of posts.

[SNOWBALL]

David and Lestat are right. Saying "god saved my father from the train wreck" is the same thing as saying "god didn't save anyone else from the train wreck." But its worse than that, because it implies that those who died were not deserving of god's help. Involving god's will in any aspect of a disaster involves god's will in every aspect of the disaster. To disagree with this, you must argue that god is not omnipotent.

[godBoy]

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The carbon dioxide levels exceeded 3 times the limit for safely sustaining life.

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The miners for their own safety should have been able to recognise this before it was too late. I know 12 people have died, I do feel extremely sorry for their loved ones even if you don't believe so.

The fact is that the vast majority of human suffering is self inflicted from misjudgements or human error. God is not to blame for this recent tragedy but tells us to 'guard common sense and clear-thinking'. People have said things like 'everyone dies, is death such a bad thing'. It's just that MidGe doesn't like me very much /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[MidGe]

Yep, all those, including infants, killed in the tsunami should have known better. That's the risk you take when living close to or going to the beach, after all. By the way, mountains are dangerous too (see earthquakes in Pakistan, India etc...) and so are the country side of Victoria. I hope your god can discriminate you from the others when he unleashes his fury, via bush fires. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Well I am sure those never touched good fundamentalist believers like yourself.

Godboy, you are beyong outrageous in your lack of understanding and compassion. You must be made in the image of your god. I am glad I am not.

[chezlaw]

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Godboy, you are beyong outrageous in your lack of understanding and compassion. You must be made in the image of your god. I am glad I am not.


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His god is made in his image.

chez

[MidGe]

point taken /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It is a worry though,

MidGe

[godBoy]

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The fact is that the vast majority of human suffering is self inflicted from misjudgements or human error.

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Not all, are the people in the tsunami tradgedy to blame for their deaths, of course not. I never suggested they were to blame. I was not talking about suffering for no fault of their own. Do I really need to defend my own words when they are taken so far from their context.

[behemoth2006]

Um, Godboy is right, and every one of you that yelled at him for what he said bout them knowing the danger is merely listening too much to the media.

These men's salary averaged 45,000 dollars. They knew the dangers.

God yes it's a tragedy, but it's not like 9/11, even from the victim's standpoint. This job is (Im 99% sure) the 2nd deadliest job in America, second to meat packing.

But then Godboy goes wrong. Apparently after the "it wasn't insensitive" argument was shot through, he needed to say it wasn't god's fault.

Again Godboy, how bout you answer the question: how come it's only God's fault when somehting good happens? Nothing in life, that we can see, taste, touch, or feel is like that. Know why? ITS A FAIRY TALE.

[godBoy]

Not everything good that happens is attributed to God.
People are capable of doing good things too. I think it's important to give credit where credit is due though. My friend was hit by a car doing 80 k's, apart from some great scars he was perfectly healthy. I thought it reasonable to thank God for this.

It could be that it has just become a cliche thing to say when you are shown good fortune.
I'm not sure how many of the people recieving music awards actually do believe that God is the only reason they have got the award. It doesn't stop them from saying "Most of all, I'd like to thank God"