Cool new product

[TxRedMan]

Garbage.

That's what it's called. Garbage. It's a creatine/loading system that has a lot of cool stuff in it. You can check it out here garbage (http://anabolicminds.com/store/1258.html) .

I'm liking it mostly b/c it's ultra convenient and tastes good, too. W/ something like cell tech you have to mix in a lot of water or the taste is overwhelming. Not so w/ this stuff.

The caffeine is a nice thing, too.

Anyways, I'm not big on supp's for the most part, but I like this one. Beats all the other creatine supps out there right now if you ask me.

Also, only 25 calories per serving.

[delta k]

1. How much caffeine? I'm kind of sensitive to it
2. $25 for 30 servings? Sounds pretty good to me. Do you use it twice like they suggest?

[skunkworks]

Guys, creatine in a liquid is highly unstable and ends up degrading into creatinine, especially given the amount of time these products sit on the shelf. That's why this is garbage.

950% RDA of Vitamin C? WHY? Overdosing on vitamins can be as bad as not getting enough.

If you've ever taken creatine monohydrate, it's largely tasteless when mixed as a powder into liquid. STICK WITH THE POWDER FORM FOR GOD'S SAKE. Not only that, but it should be taken with sugars to increase its uptake to muscles. Again, this product is garbage.

[delta k]

Skunk,

My creatine is in pill form. Good/bad?

[SmileyEH]

afaik skunk is right as always. Creatine is about the simplest and cheapest non-standard supplement you can take. Because it's so cheap and simple companies are constantly trying to "add value" which really means nothing except for the price. If you want to take creatine just get the monohydrate, have a few grams after you workout with some simple sugars or buy a protein shake that includes both.

[skunkworks]

delta, that's fine. Most likely it's just creatine monohydrate powder stuck in capsules so that you don't have to mix it into liquid. I would recommend taking it with your post-workout shakes to allow the creatine to ride the wave of insulin.

Smiley, odds that Tx is a Muscle&Fitness shill? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, creatine in a liquid is highly unstable and ends up degrading into creatinine, especially given the amount of time these products sit on the shelf. That's why this is garbage.

950% RDA of Vitamin C? WHY? Overdosing on vitamins can be as bad as not getting enough.

If you've ever taken creatine monohydrate, it's largely tasteless when mixed as a powder into liquid. STICK WITH THE POWDER FORM FOR GOD'S SAKE. Not only that, but it should be taken with sugars to increase its uptake to muscles. Again, this product is garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gifskunk...especially the bolded part.

I have never understood this obsession with taking a zillion percent of a particular vitamin, it is terrible for you. If you are eating correctly, most of the time you don't even need to take vitamins in a supplement or pill form b/c you are getting enough from the foods you are eating and these are the best vitamins for you anyway, they come from the earth. Many multivitamins aren't that great and are mostly trash but the typical American diet is poor and w/o enough vitamins in it, thus the need of supplements of vitamins.

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys, creatine in a liquid is highly unstable and ends up degrading into creatinine, especially given the amount of time these products sit on the shelf. That's why this is garbage.

950% RDA of Vitamin C? WHY? Overdosing on vitamins can be as bad as not getting enough.

If you've ever taken creatine monohydrate, it's largely tasteless when mixed as a powder into liquid. STICK WITH THE POWDER FORM FOR GOD'S SAKE. Not only that, but it should be taken with sugars to increase its uptake to muscles. Again, this product is garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gifskunk...especially the bolded part.

I have never understood this obsession with taking a zillion percent of a particular vitamin, it is terrible for you. If you are eating correctly, most of the time you don't even need to take vitamins in a supplement or pill form b/c you are getting enough from the foods you are eating and these are the best vitamins for you anyway, they come from the earth. Many multivitamins aren't that great and are mostly trash but the typical American diet is poor and w/o enough vitamins in it, thus the need of supplements of vitamins.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of points. % of RDA is a stupid way to look at things. The RDA, as with almost everything else coming from government agencies, is completely retarded. In some cases the guidelines are fine, in others they are simply way, way off. I mean these are the same people recommending the "food pyramid" which has numerous problems.

[ QUOTE ]

3-5 servings a day of vegetables, especially green, leafy vegetables.

2-4 servings of fruits a day.

2-3 servings of meat, fish, eggs, nuts, beans or legumes a day.

2-3 servings of dairy products including cheese and yogurt once in two days.

6-11 servings of grain a day such as rice, bread, cereals, and pasta

[/ QUOTE ]

Vitamin C, unlike some other vitamins, is very difficult to overdose on. It passes through your system pretty quickly rather than building up like some others, although too much can cause some side effects like acne, sores in your mouth, etc. Still the RDA for it is ridiculously low.

Good point on the creatine. I can't believe they're still trying to sell it in liquid form.

[Thremp]

tdarko,

Some things you can OD on and not have any worries. Most of your B vitamins and C and a few others are perfectly acceptable. Water solubility is the main thing that is important. Like taking a fistful of vitamin C pills won't kill you, but taking a ton of fat soluble ones... might.

[dms]

Thremp is right. B and C will pass through your system fairly quickly if you have an excess. Others will build up in your fat and become toxic after a while.

Regarding C, I remember hearing about a Nobel Prize winner for chemistry I think that did some research. Basically, he took a rediculous amount of C everyday after learning that humans and guinea pigs are the only mammals that don't produce C for themselves (I think). He arrived at what he thought was the correct amount by examining the natural C levels in lions or something.

The RDA is basically a suggestion to keep you from getting scurvy.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, creatine in a liquid is highly unstable and ends up degrading into creatinine, especially given the amount of time these products sit on the shelf. That's why this is garbage.

950% RDA of Vitamin C? WHY? Overdosing on vitamins can be as bad as not getting enough.

If you've ever taken creatine monohydrate, it's largely tasteless when mixed as a powder into liquid. STICK WITH THE POWDER FORM FOR GOD'S SAKE. Not only that, but it should be taken with sugars to increase its uptake to muscles. Again, this product is garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

i mix 5-10 grams of the CM powder with my gatorade that I drink while working out. Bad/Good?

[Wu36]

CDS, most people prefer to use the gatorade powder as well (for the dextrose). but regular gatorade isn't gonna magically make your gains go away, looks good.

[Doug Funnie II]

I think that product looks a little overengineered to try to hit all the bases. You'd probably get better results taking a few of the components at different times of the day. For instance, caffeine and arginine have opposing effects, and creatine and glutamine fight for absorbtion, so taking them at the same time will diminish results.

Its superconvenient though to get them all at once, so maybe I'll order some.

[skunkworks]

With regards to Vitamin C, I wasn't 100% sure whether scientific research has cleared it from causing kidney stones when overdosed. Vitamin C is definitely safer than others; I was just commenting on the idiotic idea in micronutrition of more is always better.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
Some things you can OD on and not have any worries. Most of your B vitamins and C and a few others are perfectly acceptable. Water solubility is the main thing that is important. Like taking a fistful of vitamin C pills won't kill you, but taking a ton of fat soluble ones... might.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't actually say "not have any worries" b/c there have been tons of studies and there are things to worry about. Like Skunk says later, I was just adding to the concept that more is better is such an ignorant train of thought.

Plus, unlike the vitamin C you get from food the C you get from supplements isn't an antioxidant, it's a redox agent.

[dms]

Is there a reason to take it after you workout instead of before?

I've read that a significant benefit of creatine is the energy that it will provide for your workout, allowing you to have a better session at the gym.

[Thremp]

tdarko,

True. No worries is wrong. But it won't kill you directly from toxicity like some other vitamins will. It still doesn't make it safe from long term overuse.

[nutsflopper]

Sometimes I think supplement companies laugh trying to see how far they can go while the lazy sheep keep buying their garbage. Literally calling this supplement garbage is the epitome in totally leveling consumers.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Literally calling this supplement garbage is the epitome in totally leveling consumers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, this reminds me of some of the competition to provide chess game databases. ChessBase prided itself on having good quality databases, but others would outsell them by concentrating their advertising on how many hundreds of thousands more games they had. Finally ChessBase countered by putting out a huge low quality game collection and calling it HorrorBase. And people actually bought it.

[skunkworks]

Smiley also made a great point that supplement companies try to reengineer commodities to elevate profit margin while attempting to pass off their product as more effective. You see this a lot with things like creatine.

Creatine monohydrate is most popular, but companies sell creatine citrate and creatine ethyl ester under some sort of guise of being more effective. There's little scientific proof of this, but that doesn't stop companies from taking what is a commodity and reengineering it to make us pay more for "premium" products.

[Thremp]

skunk,

Some companies also sell completely bogus supplements. Myostat? WTF trash is that?

[skunkworks]

To be honest, I don't mind these companies and snake oil salesmen robbing idiots blind. Caveat emptor when it comes to supplements -- that's what you get when you look for a magic bullet and for easy solutions.

[Thremp]

skunk,

I agree. Even the most reputable companies do it. Kinda sad that its the state of the industry though. I miss the good ol' pro-hormone days when atleast almost everything worked goot.

[TxRedMan]

This isn't a liquid/serum creatine.

It's a powder.

How did you miss that? Or am I terribly mistaken here? I don't think I am, b/c I just opened a packet and poured the powder into a bottle of water and drank it.

This product is good for me b/c I'm dieting, and a lot of creatine products have way too much sugar.

This product doesn't contain enough high glcemic carbs on it's own, but it does contain polydextrose. Dextrose is extremly high glycemic, and high glycemic carbs lead to insulin spikes which increase the effectiveness of creatine.

I've got enough sugars in my diet as is for me not to need to take anymore w/ my creatine. And I don't want/need the 500 calories that would come w/ some products.

But I'd like to reitterate, this isn't a liquid creatine, it's a powder.

And you're not going to OD on vitamin C or B-12. Don't put too much faith in RDA numbers, OP.

[skunkworks]

Tx, lol.

"Garbage delivers a steady flow of energy through the water it's mixed with." First line of that link. I read that and immediately thought it was one of those pre-mixed deals. My bad, though in my defense it was definitely written poorly and ambiguously.

Regardless, I'm not exactly sure how this is any better than buying a tub of creatine powder and taking some caffeine.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]

Regardless, I'm not exactly sure how this is any better than buying a tub of creatine powder and taking some caffeine.

[/ QUOTE ]

from his 1st post... "it's ultra convenient and tastes good, too."

[anklebreaker]

Ha,

This thread is funny and useful. All things considered, this is not the worst supplement out there.

I do remember around 5 years ago, when these kids would bring their red liquid creatine droppers to the gym and filled up as they lifted.

Like thremp said, even "reputable" supplement companies sell utter trash (eg. biotest.) Another often overlooked area of being scammed, or worse, poisoned, is the actual chemical composition of a particular supplement. It might say: 50mg x, 320mg y, etc, but lab tests have often shown that the composition doesn't match up with the label (almost always with lesser than stated active ingredients obv.) Other times they have found toxic additives in supplements.

There's an independent lab that performs tests on some classes of nutritional supplements, and tests for labellin authenticity and purity. I forget the name right now.

[thirddan]

ankle,

which biotest stuff do you consider crap? i get most of my stuff from them...

[Thremp]

thirddan,

Myostat which they worked on with another lab was complete trash. I'm curious about the Beta-7, Rev-Z, and Se7en. Or whatever else is out there. Most of the time I prefer to see what happens when people use their ish for a while.

[anklebreaker]

^
Methoxy.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
^
Methoxy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I've heard this worked for people who took it. Its not very strong ergo not really significant results.

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not exactly sure how this is any better than buying a tub of creatine powder and taking some caffeine.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, the first thing that comes to mind is not having to buy a tub of creatine powder and some caffeine....

my thoughts regarding this supp are:

tastes good
low cal
effective delivery system
caffeine/energy boost for pre workout
has dextrose
contains some vitamins that a lot of people don't get enough of (although i'm not one of those people)
cost effective
really convenient


I just get this sneaking suspicion that even if poster (x) thought something was a good idea or product, poster (x) would argue the opposite if I advocated it, largely based on one idea of mine to do a high volume leg workout when beginning a routine, before good form is engrained into your muscle memory.

meh, call me crazy....

[SmileyEH]

tastes good - ok
low cal - this is a creatine supp right? creatine has 0 cals
effective delivery system - marketingspeak
energy boost - ok
has dextrose - dextrose is 2.29 a pound
vitamins - said it yourself: no point
cost effective - looks like $1 a serving. I still see this as a creatine supplement. true protein will mix creatine into a mix for 9.99/lb or ~ 10cents/serving
really convenient - ok

My problem is not that this is a good product or not, just that it is mostly pointless marketing lingo and overpriced for what it is: creatine and some sugar. Talking about advanced delivery mechanisms and energy boosts for what amounts to a cup's worth of coffee with sugar is really not in the spirit of actually helping people make good decisions in fitness. Stuff like this just adds to the noise factor imo.

[anklebreaker]

td, yup myostat/methoxy etc

thremp, methoxy is BS. They discontinued it. No good evidence.

tx, nah, you ain't that crazy.

Also, in an article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/sports/playmagazine/04play-masterclass.html?ref=playmagazine) abt Mark Verstegen's performance training camp from the New York Times Play magazine that I had previously linked:
[ QUOTE ]
When a camper questions the high number of reps we’re doing, Gomes explains that it takes 500 repetitions to train your body to get a movement right. If you’ve been performing one wrong and need to “rewire” your brain and retrain your body, it can take 5,000. We promptly shut up.

[/ QUOTE ]

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]

Regarding C, I remember hearing about a Nobel Prize winner for chemistry I think that did some research. Basically, he took a rediculous amount of C everyday after learning that humans and guinea pigs are the only mammals that don't produce C for themselves (I think). He arrived at what he thought was the correct amount by examining the natural C levels in lions or something.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's Linus Pauling. He's one of very few people to have two nobel prizes. He and many good scientists believe that heavy doses of Vitamin C are good for you.

OTOH it doesn't have anything to do with weight lifting, so its presense in this supplement is a red herring.

[Thremp]

Ankle,

Interesting. Any anecdotal evidence or anything else you can link up?

Here is a copy of a PM I sent to David Barr:


LMAO Dude, you know that the articles I submit are about more than just getting checks, right?
I think they were going to do a consumer report on themselves with regard to Myostat, but don't know what happened to that. I'm going to try to get involved if I can.

You need to explain to me why everyone is so crazy about this Myostat stuff. I mean, wasn't it discontinued over a year ago?

Hypothetical situation: you have company A who sells lots of cool novel legitimate supplements, but throw in one [censored] product. Companies B,C, and D, all sell the same [censored] copycat products, and always have.
For some reason, the latter companies get away with it, and no one even questions them for a second. Company A however, gets ridden forever about their one [censored] product. I just don't get it.
Of course I'm not naming any companies or products. lol

As for T2, I think it was made illegal for some reason. It was before my time... :P

What's your opinion on Carbolin?

Cheers
-Dave

Garrett W. wrote:
Its great that they write you checks and provide me with free information, and published your article about glutamine. But it'd be even better if they just broke down and admitted Myostat was a huge crock of [censored]...

I'm waiting for that one. You also know why T2 was discountinued?

[tdarko]

anklebreaker,

Mark Verstegen is a good example of a great marketer that has continually taken the thoughts of the great minds around him and called them his own. I worked out at API and he was nothing more than business man and a good one at that, but a great trainer he isn't.

[Thremp]

Note: The above PM with Barr is very old. Possibly 24 months or so. Since then Carbolin 19 has proven itself as a pretty effective supplement. Still not like the old days or what they say it is. But the stuff seems to work fairly well. I'll report any amazing body comp changes I have.

[skunkworks]

Aw c'mon Tx, I may think some of the fitness advice you give is insane because you don't know what it's like to be a physically normal human being (you is beefcake) but you know I am very much a fan of the revamped, post-yves blowout TxRedMan.

I really did think that it was liquid creatine with some caffeine and Vitamin C which I would not recommend to anyone due to it being totally retarded by principle. Since I know now that the creatine is in powder form, I can see how some could find it convenient as a substitute to Red Bull/Monster energy drinks.

[TxRedMan]

oh, okay, fine, i suppose....

just remember all these hormones tend to make me a bit sensitive sometimes.

[zer0]

i can't believe the extent of some people's product research is reading the label. with the way some of these products can negatively impact you, why not find out wtf it does?