100NL - Akward yet necessary C/R?

[willw9]

Villain is running 28/16/1 over 100 hands. No history, pretty unknown. Preflop is probably meh FWIW. I usually raise I guess.

Poker Stars
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.50/$1 Blinds
6 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
<font color="black">Hero (SB): $120.50</font>
BB: $49
UTG: $117.95
<u>MP: $90.65</u>
CO: $91.40
BTN: $64.85

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($1.50, 6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $3</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.50, BB folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8.50, 2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">MP bets $4</font>, Hero?

[lifes3ps]

i like a lead for $5 or $6, then just shutdown, your calling a cbet there at least anyways

[willw9]

Anyone else?

[GittyUP]

c/r is good here or on turn. I do this against opponents who are aggro and cbet alot. If called I instashutdown though.

[willw9]

I think this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=9707293&amp;page=0&amp;fpart=1&amp;v c=1) is of relevance. The dilemna is basically that while he rarely extract value from a worse hand on the flop by c/r, it still seems to be the best course of action.

[loosbastard]

I don't totally mind a C/R...but I think I slightly prefer C/C'ing. By C/R'ing we're turning our hand into a bluff. I'd rather C/R this flop w/ complete air than 88, as 88 still has some decent value against his range. The turn really depends on your read on the villain. If he's more straightforward I'll probably lead a safe turn. If he's tricky/aggro...I like C/C'ing maybe one more street and re-evaluating the river.

[GittyUP]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't totally mind a C/R...but I think I slightly prefer C/C'ing. By C/R'ing we're turning our hand into a bluff. I'd rather C/R this flop w/ complete air than 88, as 88 still has some decent value against his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason i say c/r here because villain is most likely weak as the half pot flop bet gives away. Calling here is bad for a couple of reasons.
1) villain has overs/draw. We are letting him draw to hit.
2)Villain has any two cards but fires a 2nd barrel after we showed weakness by calling a half pot bet on flop.
3)c/r with a mid PP here then getting called by top pair or over pair and hopefully a cheap showdown sets us up for later hands when we c/r with a monster.

[plan9]

Yeah, I C/R flop, and this is a really good flop for 88. Or you could just C/C given his low AF.

[Whiterby]

c/r is ok here i make it 14$ to go

[Paul Thomson]

Preflop: I like a call more than a reraise.

Flop: it's hard to go wrong as long as u don't fold.
-- u can lead but given his high vpip and trips probably wouldn't lead, I prefer a check

-- check raise is fine. but I'm not sure if you're going to get a fold from an over pair. and if u check-raise are u planning on betting the turn?

-- I like a check-call and lead turn best. Check-call, check fold is also goot.

[loosbastard]

[ QUOTE ]

The reason i say c/r here because villain is most likely weak as the half pot flop bet gives away. Calling here is bad for a couple of reasons.
1) villain has overs/draw. We are letting him draw to hit.
2)Villain has any two cards but fires a 2nd barrel after we showed weakness by calling a half pot bet on flop.
3)c/r with a mid PP here then getting called by top pair or over pair and hopefully a cheap showdown sets us up for later hands when we c/r with a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

But by C/R'ing we're bloating the pot OOP w/ a marginal hand. If he calls, we pretty much have to give up the hand or fire again...and neither are good options. We are turning a hand w/ some value into essentially a bluff. I'd much rather C/R this flop w/ a draw or air than 88.

[loosbastard]

[ QUOTE ]
and trips probably wouldn't lead

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I've noticed a lot of 2+2'ers say...and I think it can get you in a lot of trouble. I lead out w/ sets all the time. It's this exact line of thinking that gets me paid off by over-pairs over, and over again. It is true that most players don't lead sets, but to make that assumption without much history is dangerous.

[GittyUP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The reason i say c/r here because villain is most likely weak as the half pot flop bet gives away. Calling here is bad for a couple of reasons.
1) villain has overs/draw. We are letting him draw to hit.
2)Villain has any two cards but fires a 2nd barrel after we showed weakness by calling a half pot bet on flop.
3)c/r with a mid PP here then getting called by top pair or over pair and hopefully a cheap showdown sets us up for later hands when we c/r with a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

But by C/R'ing we're bloating the pot OOP w/ a marginal hand. If he calls, we pretty much have to give up the hand or fire again...and neither are good options. We are turning a hand w/ some value into essentially a bluff. I'd much rather C/R this flop w/ a draw or air than 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that if called we have to shutdown in which case we know we are beat. But i think we need to find out if we are beat. Calling, instead of folding or raising, a 1/2 pot bet is the worse option IMO. Not only do we set ourselves up for a 2barrel fold but we are lost as to our hand strength. If villain bet flop 3/4 pot or so then I'd say a call is ok but 1/2 pot looks more like a tester bet with overs/weak hand.

If I am villain here and my opponent calls this flop bet I am almost always firing another barrel.

EDIT: By the way I play a strong aggro game. either fold or raise. I feel like many of these posts advocating a call is from a weak tight game. My thoughts on a weaktight don't need to be explained or elaborated on here but here's a link to give you the general idea in case your interested. http://www.playwinningpoker.com/articles/04/21.html

[loosbastard]

Board: Td 4s 4d

Hand 0: 56.805% 56.23% 00.58% { 8d8s }
Hand 1: 43.195% 42.62% 00.58% { 22+, AcKc, AQs-ATs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, AJo+, KQo }

While this range is obviously pretty wide, we still have good equity against many of his likely holdings. My objective is to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. C/R'ing doesn't accomplish that. It turns our hand into a bluff. If we're going to give up on the turn everytime he calls...why not just C/R with complete air here? It's essentially the same thing because our hand has very little chance of improving.

I also completely disagree that calling is always weak-tight. I play a very aggro game as well (5.5 AF)...but there are times when C/C OOP is the best line. It induces bluffs and keeps pots small when your hand can't stand much heat. Of course you shouldn't always play medium strength hands so passively...but to say you have to always raise or fold is bad advice IMHO.

A perfect example is KQ on a K-7-4 (rainbow) board. Do you always raise the flop in position here if villain bets? You're folding out a lot of hands you beat including bluffs...and you're building the pot w/ a hand that you really don't want to get it in with.

[GittyUP]

[ QUOTE ]
Board: Td 4s 4d

Hand 0: 56.805% 56.23% 00.58% { 8d8s }
Hand 1: 43.195% 42.62% 00.58% { 22+, AcKc, AQs-ATs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, AJo+, KQo }

While this range is obviously pretty wide, we still have good equity against many of his likely holdings. My objective is to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. C/R'ing doesn't accomplish that. It turns our hand into a bluff. If we're going to give up on the turn if he calls...why not just C/R with complete air here? It's essentially the same thing because our hand has very little chance of improving.

I also completely disagree that calling is always weak-tight. I play a very aggro game as well (5.5 AF)...but there are times when C/C OOP is the best line. It induces bluffs and keeps pots small when your hand can't stand much heat. Of course you shouldn't always play medium strength hand so passively...but to say you have to raise or fold here is bad advice IMHO.

A perfect example is KQ on a K-7-4 (rainbow) board. Do you always raise the flop in position here if villain bets? You're folding out a lot of hands you beat including bluffs...and you're building the pot w/ a hand that you really don't want to get it in with.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said calling is always weak/tight. but in this hand it is.

BTW that example Kxx hand you said is quite different because if we are ahead we are way ahead and we are behind probably way behind. A call is ok because there are very few turn cards that will help villain if he is behind and i am not afraid of further aggression. And if villain did make a weak flop bet like a min raise or 1/3 pot raise in the K 7 3 r hand I'm most likely raising I'm not going to give him odds to draw two pair etc.

In this hand we are most likely ahead but not by much. By betting so weak on flop villain is giving himself odds to draw out on us. Like I said before calling is weaktight. "I think I have the best hand but I dont want to get involved to heavily in case i dont have the best hand blah blah AND most likely fold on turn unimproved to an further aggression because now I no longer know where i am at in the hand."

[loosbastard]

[ QUOTE ]
"I think I have the best hand but I dont want to get involved to heavily in case i dont have the best hand blah blah AND most likely fold on turn unimproved to an further aggression because now I no longer know where i am at in the hand."

[/ QUOTE ]

My point was that it would be better to C/R complete air here than 88. Our hand has showdown value...but we're going to give up if our C/R is called. Air has no showdown value...but basically accomplishes the same thing: pushing him off a small pair or missed overs.

Additionally, if you're so concerned w/ looking weak...then why not 3-bet PF?

[Imrahil]

I just c/c and check down the hand. Villain isn't going to bet anymore without a good pair.

[willw9]

I called, and turn was a 5d.

C/F or B/F?

[Imrahil]

I think you could make a half pot bet and fold to a raise. You may get value out of 66 and 77. I usually just check here.

[shpanko]

[ QUOTE ]
i like a lead for $5 or $6, then just shutdown, your calling a cbet there at least anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

THis is really bad advice. Either c/c or c/r. Donking turns your hand into a bluff against most opponents

[tannenj]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i like a lead for $5 or $6, then just shutdown, your calling a cbet there at least anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

THis is really bad advice. Either c/c or c/r. Donking turns your hand into a bluff against most opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

cr also turns your hand into a bluff, sir.