Some running questions

[mediumpimpin]

After the thread on shinsplints (which I have had for years and had some advice) I decided to make this post about a few small problems I have with running.

A little background I have been running routinely for about 6 years. I try to run at least 6 miles a week and try to do 9-12. The majority of this is on a treadmill after lifting however weekends and if it's nice I try to get outside. The only races (which usually just consist of me timing myself) I have ever run where 5K's, with my best time being mid 19 minutes but recently around 23 minutes. Here are my issues.

1)Running on a treadmill- How accurate can do you think the readings are on here. Mainly the speed and distance. It takes me almost 28 minutes to run 3.2 Miles (5K). It seems like Im running way harder than when Im outside, but my time is significantly slower. Also, I don't really understand how the calorie counter can be accurate.Sure, I enter my weight but wouldn't height,stride,heartrate ETC ETC have some play in this also?

This next question is serious I'm sorry if it offends anyone

2) While running my balls really bother me- I wear boxers and it seems like they always somehow rub between my legs in An annoying way. When Im outside I can usually keep adjusting but it's hard to due in a packed gym. I have tried boxer briefs and it's still uncomfortable. Should I switch to tighty whities? Is there some special technique I don't know about?

3)The best way to decrease my run time- I want to be able to run 5k's in under 18 minutes. My friends have told me that HIIT is the best, but I really hate doing sprints and stuff like that.

Pretty soon I would like to start running 10k's and long term I want to complete at least 1 marathon.

Thanks for any help!

[tdarko]

mediumpimpin,

1) The reason you feel that you are going faster on a treadmill than when you are outside is b/c while on a treadmill you don't have the visual cues--like scenery going by and this throws you off. It is normal for everyone, just like your equilibrium being thrown off when you stop. Ever notice when you stop, get off the treadmill it feels like the ground is moving like you are at sea or something? Next time find a mirror and notice that your legs aren't moving as fast as you think they are.

2) Lol. Come on man boxers? Personally, I wear spandex tights under my shorts. It eliminates chaffing and rubbing of my thighs as well as your problem. I like my boys to be secure. I really can't understand boxers that is just weird and I don't know anyone that runs in them.

3) Just logging miles won't actually ever decrease your time significantly. You need to incorporate speed workouts into your plan. I run 1 mile repeats and occasionally run 400 meter repeats (the way you increase the level of difficulty is by either shortening the rest in between sets or decreasing the run time) for speed work. If I were you I would do 400 meter repeats and build up to the mile repeats. Any kind of fast twitch workout will build your speed but to be able to decrease your 5K/10K time it as to be a fast twitch workout that is sustained for a longer period of time--for instance running a 60 yard dash does nothing for your 5K time. Marathon runners, during their base phase of their workouts do a ton of mile repeats for their speed workouts.

[Colt McCoy]

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2) Lol. Come on man boxers? Personally, I wear spandex tights under my shorts. It eliminates chaffing and rubbing of my thighs as well as your problem. I like my boys to be secure. I really can't understand boxers that is just weird and I don't know anyone that runs in them.

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Exactly what I wear.

[kerowo]

Off the shelf heart rate monitors use age, weight, height, and the measured heart rate to figure your heart rate as a percentage of max heart rate and then calculate calories expended. Max heart rate is usually estimated to be something like 220 minus your age and isn't very accurate. There are ways to get max heart rate but most of them involve spending money. So you are better off assuming that the monitor on the treadmill is consistant but not accurate. That is, if you run the same distance in the same time and there is a decrease in the amount of calories burned it means you are getting better at doing that distance, your not working as hard as you used to. I wouldn't consider that as soon as the treadmill said you had burned 3500 calories that you were exactly one pound lighter.

[BreakfastBurrito]

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3) Just logging miles won't actually ever decrease your time significantly.

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I'm not an expert, but I do run regularly and read running forums, and my own experience as well as every informed person I've heard would tell me that you're exactly wrong on this. Is there a basis for your opinion?

To OP:

1) The speed and distance readings are accurate. The calorie counter is an approximation so you're right not to put much faith in it.

2) Buy a good pair of running shorts. No boxers or briefs required, chafing problems gone.

3) Go to a real running forum. www.coolrunning.com (http://www.coolrunning.com) or www.runningtimes.com (http://www.runningtimes.com) both have good forums where people are typically very knowledgable and helpful. I'm not quite as hard core as lot of those runners, but I'm at the level you want to get to, and the typical training schedule for me is:

2 tough speed oriented workouts per week. One will be a track workout with varying combinations of intervals anywhere between 400m and 1 mile. About 6-9 miles of total running and 3-5 miles of quality speed work. The other will be either a challening hill workout or a tempo run or fartlek. Anywhere between 4-9 miles on these.

Two lower intensity runs. One comfortable run of between 45 min to an hour during the week and a long slow run on the weekends of between 12-16 miles or twice as long as the other.

I hope you can find a way to get outside. Trying to do most of your training on a treadmill would seriously suck.

[SmileyEH]

Although I'm no expert on running it seems to me that a big benefit of long low intensity runs lies more in their psycological benifit rather than increased fitness. I ran cross country in highschool and I found the toughest part in going hard for a 5mile race or whatever, was simply staying focused and confident I can destroy the distance I'm doing. If all you run is 1 mile repeats than yes you will probably be fit, but a 10k is still going to be a daunting task. But running a 15k or whatever once a week will provide you with that mental comfort zone to not panic and maintain a fast steady pace.

Anyway, am I at all close here?

[tdarko]

Burrito,

Mileage is the most important part of any runner's program b/c as Smiley points out and as you know each week you log more miles the more adapt your body becomes to that specific mileage. You can't run a marathon w/o putting in tons of miles beforehand but just b/c you are running 40-50 miles or greater a week doesn't mean that you will "significantly" decrease your marathon time (I am using a marathon as my example) but it will mean that the marathon will be more comfortable/easy to run. The miles will not have made you faster.

Training specificity (speed workout like like fartlek--great mention btw!) is important in developing the energy system that is primarily used during your race. Long, slow running uses mainly slow-twitch muscle fibers and the aerobic or oxygen burning, system for energy production. For shorter, more intense distances like 400 or 800 meters the anaerobic or w/o oxygen energy system becomes the main supply of energy. So speed training teaches the body to run anaerobically--to run fast when there is a lack of oxygen going to working muscles.

This is very important. By training more intensely (long slow runs aren't intense even though 20 miles is excruciatingly difficult it may seem), you learn to deal with lactic acid buildup in your legs--the heavy feeling that comes late in races. Also, these fast-twitch muscle fibers are what is needed to produce leg speed, without this you simply cannot go faster no matter how many miles you run.

You may lower your time some w/o speed workouts and logging tons of miles simply b/c you are more comfortable but it won't be a significant amount.

Every serious marathon runner I know (which is plenty) and everything I have read stands by speed workouts to lower your running times.

You mentioned fartlek runs in your post which is great advice.

[BreakfastBurrito]

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Anyway, am I at all close here?

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No, not really. This article (http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460) is a pretty good quick explanation of the idea behind it. I personally haven't bought into it completely, and this method is known for not being all that effective for those under 25 years of age, but plenty of elite athletes swear by it.

[SmileyEH]

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Anyway, am I at all close here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not really. This article (http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460) is a pretty good quick explanation of the idea behind it. I personally haven't bought into it completely, and this method is known for not being all that effective for those under 25 years of age, but plenty of elite athletes swear by it.

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Seems pretty sketchy to me. I can tell pretty accurately when I am aerobic and when I am anaerobic when Im rowing and I don't need a heart monitor. Also, all that long long low intensity running/biking is going to be horrible for your musculature, anaroebic pathways, and joints. I guess thats fine if you have great genes and want to run iron man triathalons, but for someone that wants to run a 5k fast and still be able to jump more than 8 inches off the ground it looks to me like terrible training.

[Green Kool Aid]

all,

you could not be an elite 5k runner without doing AT LEAST 75 mpw, most prob do 110-120 during basebuilding phase to build fitness. (not saying running n00bs should even come close to approaching that, just saying that mileage is awesome.)

with something like a 5k, which is OVERWHELMING aerboic, mileage is your best friend.

of course mile and 400 repeats are good once a week, especially as you get closer to your goal race.

[tdarko]

Burrito,

Cool article.

I don't think it really applies completely to what we are talking about though. Mark Allen had made a career of his anaerobic ability. He touched up some edges by learning how to get into a fat burning zone which is what most marathon runners' goal is. This is why speed workouts for marathon runners are in the base stage of their workout and the 12-16 week training program is all about miles miles miles.

Your carb stores burn up much faster--though much more effective which is why the perfect race would be one in which you run out of glucose right when you cross the finish line--you would have ran a damn fast race since you would be going at a faster or greater intensity. But this is nearly impossible even for elite runners and is why burning fat while running is necessary so lowering your times while in the fat burning zone becomes a training goal.

Also, Mark Allen got plenty of anaerobic exercise elsewhere. My father was a triathlete for about 10 years and was in many of the same races as him and said that he was always tinkering with his running program. Also, not everyone is Mark Allen or has Mark Allen's VO2 max.

Smiley,

You are right, something like running/jogging is actually high-impact and considered trauma. Your body is designed to absorb the impact but it can only absorb so much impact until the muscular skeletal system and tissue start to break down. Luckily, our bodies can learn to adapt and build. If a person who hasn't been running goes out and tries to run a 15 mile week he will most likely injure himself that week or down the road when he continues to try and pound his body that isn't used to that impact. If you slowly build up to this though your tissue and muscular skeletal system will be able to take the impact and you will have less injuries. Even still, runners can't escape long term problems but you can prolong your running career by taking care of your body.

So many years on down the road I won't be able to touch the rim anymore /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[BreakfastBurrito]

Tdarko-

I disagree that you won't see significant improvements from aerobic training. IMO aerobic training is where you'll see the bulk of improvements from and intervals and speed training are the icing. 5k, 10k, and marathon races are going to be >95% aerobic vs anaerobic. Improving aerobic conditioning will do a lot more to improve race times than anaerobic. When you say the body adapts to longer milage, it's doing so because aerobic conditioning is improving right?

I agree that aerobic conditioning won't make you faster in the physical sense of being able to recruit more fast twitch muscle fibers or increase the maximum leg turnover rate, but it will make your times much faster by raising your anaerobic threshold and allowing you to hold a faster pace for much longer.

I completely buy in to the benefits of interval training but think a strong aerobic base is a more important first step for a runner. I would imagine the serious marathoners you know would acknowledge the importance of the miles they put in to build their base before speed training took them to the next level.

[tdarko]

Burrito,

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completely buy in to the benefits of interval training but think a strong aerobic base is a more important first step for a runner. I would imagine the serious marathoners you know would acknowledge the importance of the miles they put in to build their base before speed training took them to the next level.

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Well to be completely fair you don't actually know my thoughts on running programs for a marathon. I agree with a lot of what you say and much of your post isn't really needed b/c if you go back to what I posted you will see that I agree with you. I had said that most elite marathon runners, after their base is built are simply logging miles. And to build a base it takes a slow progression to get to fartleks and mile repeats or you could even injure yourself but elite runners have their base built, they are just building their "marathon base."

I guess it comes down to what "significant" is. I am at 24 miles a week right now (with other CT stuff) and my race pace right now for a 10K (though a Half is what I am going to run in a month) is ~7:20. I used to run around an 8:30 10K pace and when I started logging huge weeks I knocked it down to 8:10 and when I incorporated speed workouts I got it down to where it is now. Actually now my weeks are slightly lower in miles with a speed workout and CT.

[StaticShock]

Aerobic running has really fallen out of favor with the "hip fitness crowd." HIIT is all the rage and if you do anything else you'll be told repeatedly that running long distance will turn your fast twitch muscles to slow twitch, you'll get weak, you'll increase catabolism, no girls will make sexy time with you, blah, blah, blah.

The bottom line is that BB is correct in saying that if you're racing over 5K, your ass better be doing plenty of aerobic work to prepare.

BB said:
"I completely buy in to the benefits of interval training but think a strong aerobic base is a more important first step for a runner. I would imagine the serious marathoners you know would acknowledge the importance of the miles they put in to build their base before speed training took them to the next level."

OMG YES.

[Thremp]

StaticShock,

Most of the hip fitness crowd is solely aimed at bodybuilding (losing weight, looking better, body comp etc.) and for that purpose HIIT is much better. Obv if you have another goal then your training would change.

[tdarko]

Static Shock,

I don't think BB and I were having a conversation along the lines of "making sexy time" with the ladies or skewing programs for the "hip fitness crowd." In fact, I don't know anything about the hip fitness crowd and am just a Biomechanics and Nutrition geek that loves to run and cycle.

[StaticShock]

My comment wasn't pointed at anyone particular. Just something that's been bothering me for a little while.

[Green Kool Aid]

OP,

how much mileage do you think you can currently handle and how many days do you want to run per week?

off of that, i could make you a starting plan of a training program. (i ran HS XC and a bit in college)

[mediumpimpin]

Wow I really didn't expect this much response, this is great. Thankyou for all of your imput. I guess I was an idiot with the boxer thing, thats just all I have ever worn.I guess I will get some spandex,I guess I just always equated spandex with chicks. And I never really thought about the visual cue thing while on the treadmill. Thanks again.