Free Weights vs Machines

[TimM]

Everyone claims free weights are better, and I don't doubt that they do a better job in most cases. But my main concern is this:

"[F]ree weights require the help of a spotter, and result in more injuries than machines." LINK (http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/strengthening/a/aa050702a.htm)

Eventually I'd like to post about the machines I'm currently using and what I can do instead, but I will need to address the fact that a) I'm 40 years old, b) I have a prior knee injury which I am worried about re-injuring, and c) I won't have a spotter at the gym.

[thirddan]

most lifts that will be recommended here are compound movements that can/should be done in a power rack or on a squat rack, use the pins...don't lift weights you can't use...get correct form using light weights etc...

[SmileyEH]

The only lift which truly requires a spotter is barbell bench/decline/incline press, and back squats if you don't have access to a power rack. Learn proper form with light weight and you will never need a spotter.

[Arnett23]

[ QUOTE ]
"[F]ree weights require the help of a spotter, and result in more injuries than machines." LINK

[/ QUOTE ]

What you quoted is only half true. The reason more people are injured using free weights is because of inexperience. The benefit of machines is that they don't allow you to go over your limits. I have used free weights for 12-15 years on and off. Played college football etc and have never injured myself. I personally prefer free weights with a couple machines for hard to work muscle groups. But there is nothing at all wrong with using machines for everything, if you go to a large gym with a large assortment of machines you should have a machine to focus each and every muscle group.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
if you go to a large gym with a large assortment of machines you should have a machine to focus each and every muscle group.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh.

[einbert]

The reason more people are injured using free weights is that most people who go to the gym have [censored] form. For example average joe tries to do a military press with a barbell, first he deadlifts it probably with a rounded back, then he might hurt himself bringing it up to his chest. But if you have studied the technique and know exactly what you're doing, these motions are very safe. Practice on low weight and get a professional to critique your form. It's your spinal cord so you don't really want to take risks with it.

I think it's good to learn various forms of each exercise. For example, simply learning to benchpress with dumbbells instead of barbells will give you greater ROM, which means longterm you will have more strength and flexibility. For you aesthetic people, your pecs will be bigger and more defined, and your triceps. Squats will give you 12-pack abs....unless there is fat covering them. Free weight exercises simply tend to be more natural and have a greater ROM, which is exactly why they're better in the first place. Now if you're pushing the intensity and reps on every machine in the gym, sure you're going to get a good workout. But if you had spent that same energy on some overhead dumbbell squats, dumbbell benchpress, and barbell deadlifts your strength gains would be much greater. And you will gain more flexibility, which is going to prevent injuries over the long-term.

cliff notes: Free weights are better than machines because they give more ROM and because they're more time*energy-efficient.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
"[F]ree weights require the help of a spotter, and result in more injuries than machines." LINK (http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/strengthening/a/aa050702a.htm)


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not necessarily. Free weights increase the likelihood of injury for a lot of reasons - poor ROM, dropping them on your bodyparts, etc, etc. However, anyone that works at the gym you go to will be glad to help you out with some basic motions (basic squat, deadlift, curls, OH squat, shoulder workouts, etc). Knowledge is power, and you can download a lot of videos online too.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
But there is nothing at all wrong with using machines for everything, if you go to a large gym with a large assortment of machines you should have a machine to focus each and every muscle group.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a lot wrong with using the Smith Machine. A lot.

While machines help isolate muscle groups (which is good for some reasons), free weights help you with coordination and make you use your stabilizer muscles, which is infinitely more beneficial.

As I always say, just doing squats and deadlifts makes you ahead of 80-90% of the people in the gym alone.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot wrong with using the Smith Machine. A lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to ask about the Smith machine. Because it forces you to keep the bar straight and level I didn't see any benefit at all over the regular "pin in the weight stack" type machines (except that you can use whatever bench you want). I guess the same can be said of any of the plate loaded machines.

The gym staff definitely steer new people to the machines in front. There is a separate area for the cable row machines along with the Smith machines, and then an area with the plate loaded stuff, and behind that are the free weights. I was not shown anything in this back area with the exception of some dumbbell lunges (which are really tough on my knees).

[Arnett23]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot wrong with using the Smith Machine. A lot.


[/ QUOTE ]

No there isn't. It isolates certain muscles that you need to isolate. If you are a 7fter with no coordination then I dont' know what to tell you. 90% of the people who do squats do them wrong (me included) and mess up things that the Smith Machine wouldn't let them mess up. Ex. Back, knees etc.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot wrong with using the Smith Machine. A lot.


[/ QUOTE ]

No there isn't. It isolates certain muscles that you need to isolate. If you are a 7fter with no coordination then I dont' know what to tell you. 90% of the people who do squats do them wrong (me included) and mess up things that the Smith Machine wouldn't let them mess up. Ex. Back, knees etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a lot wrong with the Smith Machine in that most people who use them push back on the bar, which can cause serious stress on the back and can cause shearing effects on the knees. Even the majority of the people who show you how to do squats on the Smith Machine are doing incorrectly. Simple ass-to-grass squats and deadlifts with free weights are best for stabilizer muscles and for safety reasons.

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot wrong with using the Smith Machine. A lot.


[/ QUOTE ]

No there isn't. It isolates certain muscles that you need to isolate. If you are a 7fter with no coordination then I dont' know what to tell you. 90% of the people who do squats do them wrong (me included) and mess up things that the Smith Machine wouldn't let them mess up. Ex. Back, knees etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what's wrong with it. Unless you're rehabbing or something, isloation is bad, not good.

[Colt McCoy]

I was actually going to start a thread on this since my comment in Dids thread sparked the question.

Why are machines bad? Because they isolate the muscle, which is bad for a variety of reasons. Here are a couple.

1) It doesn't make you strong. Almost no task that you perform in real life, whether it's sports-related or lifting a bag of dog food, can be performed using a single muscle. Most movements will require multiple muscle groups including large muscles and numerous stabilizing muscles.

Free weights require you to work those stabilizing muscles, whereas machines perform the work of those stabilizing muscles for you. The result is that when you try to perform some task, the main muscle may be strong, but you're still unable to perform the task because the stabilizing muscles are weak and the other large muscle groups are not providing any support either.

In addition, because machines isolate muscles rather than stimulating large muscle groups, they don't adequately stimulate the central nervous system to learn to recruit more muscle fibers, which dramatically limits your strength gains.

2) Machines are dangerous and result in injuries. They are probably safer in the gym as they don't really allow you to do much that will hurt you. The danger is outside the gym. Since your muscles are isolated during workouts, they never learn to work together. They don't learn to support each other correctly. They don't learn to tense and relax the way natural movement and exertion requires. The result is that next time you go to pick up that bag of dog food, you have some muscles zigging when others are zagging. Some muscles tense, but the support muscles are relaxed and don't provide the natural protection for each other than they should. Lo and behold you pull something, strain something or tear something.

[Colt McCoy]

Also, for people who think machines are good for beginners to get started who will eventually learn and switch over to freeweights once they're stronger and more comfortable. This is a recipe for disaster.

Using the bench press as an example, many beginners have trouble with even light weights not because their large chest and shoulder muscles aren't strong enough to lift the weight but because all the stabilizing muscles aren't strong enough to hold the bar steady. So what happens?

Say they can bench 110 lb. using freeweights, but anything heavier and they have trouble holding the bar steady. So they decide they like the machine better because it effectively holds the bar steady for them. They spend the next couple fo months making those big beginner strength gains and their bench press on the machine goes up dramatically.

Then they think, hey, it's time to get serious. They realize if they want to continue to progress, they'll need to lift freeweights. So they get someone to show them proper form and switch over. Now they're in an even worse situation. The strength of their large muscles that do most of the work have increased dramatically so they can lift say 175 lb. BUT the stabilizing muscles have gotten not one iota of work from all the machine lifting. So which was more dangerous? Lifting 110 with weak stabilizing muscles? Or lifting 175 with those same weak stabilizing muscles?

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]

"[F]ree weights require the help of a spotter, and result in more injuries than machines." LINK (http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/strengthening/a/aa050702a.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]


Are you [censored] kidding me? Did anyone click on that? Never post a garbage, fluff-piece link like that again.

Free weights will only cause injuries if:
a) You use bad technique (which is also possible with machines),
b) You do too many reps and develop an overuse injury (which is equally as likely with machines), or
c) You somehow lose control of the weight and drop it on yourself (highly unlikely and not even possible with most lifts)

So if you learn proper technique and train intelligently, you will not get injured using free weights. If you don't know proper technique, go to http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0976805405 and buy "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe

Not having a spotter is a poor excuse. The vast majority of free weight exercises do not require a spotter. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from asking someone else in the gym for a spotter, and really the only excercise that requires one is the barbell bench press.

If you to half-ass your workouts and get mediocre results, then buy all means go ahead and use machines. There is a reason why all serious athletes, powerlifters, and bodybuilders all use free weights for the majority of their lifts. If you want to make the most of your time in the gym, then lift free weights.

[StregaChess]

Hey Tim, free weights rock. I'm 47 over the hill and still use and prefer free weights (I'm a mess now, we've been "preggers"). Not a fan of Smith Machines, no range of motion. I work out alone at home, no problem....
http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/92563gra.gif
Power Rack (http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/92563gra.html)
No fear of injuries, do light warm up sets and work your way up. Depending on your age you can just make some adjustments to avoid injury. No presses behind the neck. Squats done with a full range of motion, 100% down, butt to calf and no wraps, you just use a little less weight. Minor stuff like that….

[StregaChess]

[ QUOTE ]
Practice on low weight and get a professional to critique your form.

[/ QUOTE ]
einbert,
Good post...

You can also find good advice online including videos that will help you with form.
Here (http://www.athletes.com/fun/exercises.php?MainMuscle=Shoulders) and Here too (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exercises.php?MainMuscle=Forearms)

[Arnett23]

[ QUOTE ]
Simple ass-to-grass squats

[/ QUOTE ] this is exactly what I was talking about, doing anything past a 90degree angle causes serious injury and doesn't help any muscle group.

Everyone must have missed the part I was saying of using several machines to isolate several muscles. If someone wanted to set up a prop bet of some kind where someone just used free weights for 3-4 months and I just used machines and after the time we both maxxed out on free weights before and after I am 99% sure I would win.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Simple ass-to-grass squats

[/ QUOTE ] this is exactly what I was talking about, doing anything past a 90degree angle causes serious injury and doesn't help any muscle group.

Everyone must have missed the part I was saying of using several machines to isolate several muscles. If someone wanted to set up a prop bet of some kind where someone just used free weights for 3-4 months and I just used machines and after the time we both maxxed out on free weights before and after I am 99% sure I would win.

[/ QUOTE ]

arnett your advice is consistently horrible, please stop posting.

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly what I was talking about, doing anything past a 90degree angle causes serious injury and doesn't help any muscle group.

Everyone must have missed the part I was saying of using several machines to isolate several muscles. If someone wanted to set up a prop bet of some kind where someone just used free weights for 3-4 months and I just used machines and after the time we both maxxed out on free weights before and after I am 99% sure I would win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, just wow. This is just absolute nonsense.

[Thremp]

All,

I'm not gonna bother addressing any of this drivel that already hasn't been. TimM and Arnett provide very poor recommendations based off... I don't really know what they base their information off.

But a Smith Machine is probably the most dangerous piece of equipment in the gym.

[skunkworks]

Welcome back from your vacation Thremp.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
Welcome back from your vacation Thremp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Somehow applying background probability is now a reason for vacations from 2p2.

[skunkworks]

FWIW I thought your post was really funny if you were joking, but also totally racist if not.

[StregaChess]

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly what I was talking about, doing anything past a 90degree angle causes serious injury and doesn't help any muscle group.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, and when I was a baby my mom put me on my stomach to sleep, now they put babies on their backs, your info is like so 20 years ago. Going deep in squats makes you a lot stronger and you'll jet past sticking points that will occur if you only train at 90 degrees.

And regarding the prop bet, you've got to be joking right? It's clear you just don't know how to use weights, if you think you can add more pounds to a core exercise by doing machines you are on crack. It’s not even a race…

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
TimM and Arnett provide very poor recommendations based off... I don't really know what they base their information off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I was asking for recommendations, not providing them.

[Arnett23]

[ QUOTE ]
your info is like so 20 years ago. Going deep in squats makes you a lot stronger and you'll jet past sticking points that will occur if you only train at 90 degrees.

And regarding the prop bet, you've got to be joking right? It's clear you just don't know how to use weights, if you think you can add more pounds to a core exercise by doing machines you are on crack. It’s not even a race…



[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I am totally clueless, the fact that I have been the strongest to my weight in middle school, high school and college all mean nothing. Keep up with the great advice.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your info is like so 20 years ago. Going deep in squats makes you a lot stronger and you'll jet past sticking points that will occur if you only train at 90 degrees.

And regarding the prop bet, you've got to be joking right? It's clear you just don't know how to use weights, if you think you can add more pounds to a core exercise by doing machines you are on crack. It’s not even a race…



[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I am totally clueless, the fact that I have been the strongest to my weight in middle school, high school and college all mean nothing. Keep up with the great advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, how exactly do you know you are the strongest for your weight? Did your college have some kind of schoolwide strongman competition with weight classes, or are you just talking out of your ass?

Maybe you are the strongest guy on the machines cause really strong people don't use machines.

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I was asking for recommendations, not providing them.

[/ QUOTE ]

TimM, fwiw, I think rehabbing knees is one of the few things machines are good for but I'd talk to a physical therapist about what to do specifically.

[skunkworks]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I am totally clueless, the fact that I have been the strongest to my weight in middle school, high school and college all mean nothing. Keep up with the great advice.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you are totally clueless, especially since you think your good genes and strong muscles have anything to do with the quality of fitness knowledge you dispense (or lack thereof).

[StregaChess]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you are totally clueless, especially since you think your good genes and strong muscles have anything to do with the quality of fitness knowledge you dispense (or lack thereof).

[/ QUOTE ]

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

"[F]ree weights require the help of a spotter, and result in more injuries than machines." LINK (http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/strengthening/a/aa050702a.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you [censored] kidding me? Did anyone click on that? Never post a garbage, fluff-piece link like that again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, yes I was in a hurry, so I found something that expressed my concern and linked it.

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't know proper technique, go to http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0976805405 and buy "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe

[/ QUOTE ]

This book looks good and I've actually heard of it before somehow. I'll pick it up today.

If you "Search Inside" for "why barbells" there is a pretty scathing review of machines, and why they are so promoted in gyms.

[skunkworks]

TimM, it totally makes sense why fitness clubs devote 90% of their space to machines. If everyone knew that the best way to work out was with free weights, we'd have everyone setting up barbell/power rack equipment in their house for the price of a year-long gym membership. Unfortunately I'm young and have no free space /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Arnett23]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally prefer free weights with a couple machines for hard to work muscle groups. But there is nothing at all wrong with using machines for everything

[/ QUOTE ]

Did everyone miss that part of my original reply? I was just giving advice to the OP who is over 40 and has knee problems. Free weights are probably not the best idea for him. He isn't training for any physical competitions.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I personally prefer free weights with a couple machines for hard to work muscle groups. But there is nothing at all wrong with using machines for everything

[/ QUOTE ]

Did everyone miss that part of my original reply? I was just giving advice to the OP who is over 40 and has knee problems. Free weights are probably not the best idea for him. He isn't training for any physical competitions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your advice makes good sense for OP. My post was meant to address the issue of free weights vs machines in general. I think another good alternative for OP to consider is doing free weight exercises at low intensity, higher volume. This would allow him to get used to the form, get a good cardiovascular workout (he is trying to lose weight), and it would importantly increase his flexibility and balance (stabilizing muscles) more than using machines, which has longterm benefits.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Simple ass-to-grass squats

[/ QUOTE ] this is exactly what I was talking about, doing anything past a 90degree angle causes serious injury and doesn't help any muscle group.

Everyone must have missed the part I was saying of using several machines to isolate several muscles. If someone wanted to set up a prop bet of some kind where someone just used free weights for 3-4 months and I just used machines and after the time we both maxxed out on free weights before and after I am 99% sure I would win.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really, really terrible advice. Deep squats are incredibly beneficial.

[Thremp]

FWIW a lot of the exercises that some PT recommends create a lot of shearing forces in the knee. Leg extensions notably.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I personally prefer free weights with a couple machines for hard to work muscle groups. But there is nothing at all wrong with using machines for everything

[/ QUOTE ]

Did everyone miss that part of my original reply? I was just giving advice to the OP who is over 40 and has knee problems. Free weights are probably not the best idea for him. He isn't training for any physical competitions.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? If he is going to spend x amount of time in the gym anyway, he might as well spend that time optimally, ie using free weights. His age is irrelevant and his knee injury may or may not be relevant.

[StregaChess]

[ QUOTE ]
So what? If he is going to spend x amount of time in the gym anyway, he might as well spend that time optimally, ie using free weights. His age is irrelevant and his knee injury may or may not be relevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 110%, I'm 47, off and on have knee issues. I find that when I'm doing "rational" squats I have less problems with my legs. The only real difference is weights that use to take a month to hit, I might be 3 months in before I can go that hard and in general I don't hit the peaks, but that's just as much a factor as taking breaks from the program. You just have to listen to your body and follow sound basics. I'd much prefer to do squats with bad knees than do leg ext.

[TimM]

OK so I ordered Starting Strength, should get it in time for my Foxwoods trip and week off from the gym, after which I can revamp my training. And of course I will be careful...

I tried doing a few squat motions with no weight. The first one did hurt a little in the left knee, but I tried working on the form and it seemed OK. I'm guessing the knee injury came from years of bowling a dozen league games a week, plus practice, while being over 270lbs. The left is my slide foot. It flared up once about 7 or 8 years ago, I could barely walk or even bend it enough to get into my car. I went to an ER and they took X-rays and found nothing wrong, of course. Since then it's been OK but of course I worry about any mild pain in that knee. Squats on a machine have been fine, so I probably just need to keep correct form as mentioned.

The dumbbells are one interesting idea as I had a full set at home for a few years. I sold them when I joined the gym; they were just too much of a pain in the ass to use and store in my small apartment, partly because I had to keep them in one room and work out in another. So I am already familiar with dumbbell bench presses and shoulder presses. Do you guys recommend this or sticking with the barbell?

[theblackkeys]

Keep on doing bodyweight squats while you wait for starting strength to come in the mail. It helped me a ton to get my form right. I still do them all the time to make sure I'm getting low without any back rounding.

Also, here's a link to a bodybuilding.com post with a lot of the content from Starting Strength. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224
Read the squat section to get some guidelines on form.

Here's a video someone else recommended to me:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529481301858251744&q=dan+john+squatting&hl=en

Lower back straight or arched (not rounded), knees shouldn't go much past the toes, and they should track in the same direction as the toes. When you start lifting with weights, your knees will tend to want to come together. It takes a while to get your muscles balanced enough to not do this. DOn't do too much weight if this happens, as this causes rotational forces on the knee, which are bad.