Suggestions for good forearms lifts [Archive]

TxRedMan

03-22-2007, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dids,
you dont need to do any forearm isolation work really. If you do pullups, deadlifts, rows, and shrugs intensely you will work your forearms. But if you insist, google a program called "great guns" or something like that by Ian King

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found that the difference between average weight lifter forearm development (nothing impressive) and great forearm development is the exact opposite of the above.

It's like saying you don't need to work triceps as long as you're doing chest and shoulders.

Not being rude, just honest.

TxRedMan

03-23-2007, 12:05 AM

First off- don't waste your time buying a piece of wood and tying a weight to a rope at the end of it.

Why?

Can I relate this and many other training ideas to Fancy Play Syndrome? It isn't neccessary and the results are usually less than a straight forward approach.

My keys to forearm development have been fairly simple: make them hurt so bad you're nearly doubled over when the set is done; then do it again.

Take a barbell and hold it at your waist, or wherever your arms length is. Then bring it slightly out in front of you, a few inches. Curl up. But don't do your normal 10-8-6-6-5-4-3- routine, b/c you can't. You can't do a "set" of 3 on forearms curls. Grab a weight you can do fifty times and don't stop until it feels like the barbell is the size of a coke can. Then sit down on a bench, with the bottoms of your forearms resting on your knees, weight in hand, extended in front of you. Now curl it up. You're going to need a MUCH lighter weight for this. Notice how you've never worked those muscles on the top of your forearms individually, and they are now hurting like hell and fatiguing very fast. BTW- don't stop between sets. Drop the barbell and throw your feet over it so that the barbell is directly underneath your ass- (btw have a heavier barbell handy for this one) and do more curls- but this time you're doing them at a different angle (slightly). Then super set, strip set, and keep going until your forearms are completely totally engorged (usually about 5-6 of each of these).

Now, we've pre-exhausted our forearms.

From here you'll rest a minute or so before grabbing a very heavy barbell (for me it's 150 LB) and curling it as you did the lighter barbell, only holding it at the top of the motion. Once you've reached failure strip set that with a lighter weight, same motion.

Work them till your hearts content, then work them some more.

I prefer you do biceps/forearms on the same day, b/c when you're doing your bicep routine you're going to be doing very heavy hammer curls- a hammer curl is a dumbell curl with your palms facing your sides- this works the extensor muscle that runs down the side of your forearm. After that you'll do reverse grip barbell curls attempting to keep your elbows close to your sides and holding the weight at the top of the motion for a one second count. Your last two sets should be a set of perfect five rep hammer curls with a long pause at the top and a slow release followed by the heaviest weight you can handle for reverse wrist curls, same form and technique as the hammer curls.

Forearms should be the most painful body part to train.

And if you don't think high repetition exercises that have rather insane proportionate amounts of volume don't make your forerams big and strong, just take a look at the grip and endurance of a dirt bike rider. The proof is in the pudding.

-Tex

J.Brown

03-23-2007, 12:50 AM

Tx,

more painful than calves?

really? wow if that is the case.

thanks. J.

SmileyEH

03-23-2007, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dids,
you dont need to do any forearm isolation work really. If you do pullups, deadlifts, rows, and shrugs intensely you will work your forearms. But if you insist, google a program called "great guns" or something like that by Ian King

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found that the difference between average weight lifter forearm development (nothing impressive) and great forearm development is the exact opposite of the above.

It's like saying you don't need to work triceps as long as you're doing chest and shoulders.

Not being rude, just honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Tx does the great forearm development appreciably improve the ability to deadlift, pullup, snatch, clean and jerk etc.? I don't care at all about asthetics so doing forearm specific development seems pointless to me. When I fail on a clean it's not because I can't hold on to the bar but because the rest of my body isn't strong enough. Making my forearms twice as strong isn't going to help me there.

Also I think for the vast majority of people going to the gym and doing compound movements their forearms will develop nicely (just like other small muscle groups - biceps, triceps, calves etc.) If having enourmous foremarms is important to you than great, work the [censored] out of them and they will grow. But for the vast majority of guys trying to get stronger/fitter/look better there are way more important things you can be doing with your time in the gym.

TxRedMan

03-23-2007, 03:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dids,
you dont need to do any forearm isolation work really. If you do pullups, deadlifts, rows, and shrugs intensely you will work your forearms. But if you insist, google a program called "great guns" or something like that by Ian King

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found that the difference between average weight lifter forearm development (nothing impressive) and great forearm development is the exact opposite of the above.

It's like saying you don't need to work triceps as long as you're doing chest and shoulders.

Not being rude, just honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Tx does the great forearm development appreciably improve the ability to deadlift, pullup, snatch, clean and jerk etc.? I don't care at all about asthetics so doing forearm specific development seems pointless to me. When I fail on a clean it's not because I can't hold on to the bar but because the rest of my body isn't strong enough. Making my forearms twice as strong isn't going to help me there.

Also I think for the vast majority of people going to the gym and doing compound movements their forearms will develop nicely (just like other small muscle groups - biceps, triceps, calves etc.) If having enourmous foremarms is important to you than great, work the [censored] out of them and they will grow. But for the vast majority of guys trying to get stronger/fitter/look better there are way more important things you can be doing with your time in the gym.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having very strong forearms has a real world practical translation, where as many lifts do not, i.e., when do we ever really use our pectoral muscles to move heavy objects? however having very strong forearms can benefit any type of random heavy lifting, hitting a baseball, hitting a golfball, wrestling/fighting, grip strength, etc, etc.

Personally I find (as will many of you) that having strong muscular forearms isn't so much a huge benefit in the gym, but it's something you can do in the gym that makes you feel really good about yourself outside of the gym. Great looking forearms are more easily achieved than great looking pecs or abs, so why not?

And FTR- I approach lifting with the attitude that there is always enough time, i.e., i don't have to budget my time in the gym, but when I do bi's/forearms i spend 25 minutes on biceps and about a half hour on forearms.

Edit: I can't really emphasize how important hammer curls are to your bicep program. Huge.

AsH_KeTcHuM

03-23-2007, 03:38 AM

ehhhh u may be right txred... i my experience my forearms got decently strong and show definition without ever hitting them directly. I guess it depends if you want them to look fit and strong or you want them to look huge and bulgy

Colt McCoy

03-23-2007, 09:55 AM

As usual TXRedMan's a complete retard. Working to failure, no pain no gain, supersetting, pre-exhausting. go for the "pump" or "burn", hitting the bodypart from every angle approaches are just not the best way to train. His advice is so bad that every time I read one of his posts I'm trying to decide if he's just a gimmick account.

Dids, You're taking a sensible approach to this whole thing. Keep it simple. You're just getting started. Don't screw it up by looking for instant gratification for one bodypart. Squeeze the bar when you're working out. Your forearms will come along as the rest of your body does. If they don't grow over time, add a couple of sets of a couple of the movements mentioned in this thread.

TxRedMan

03-23-2007, 02:34 PM

The following is not a "who's dick is bigger contest"

Colt- WTF do you feel the need to interrupt a productive discussion on forearm training by calling my a retard? I don't understand where your hate stems from, as I was offering my advice to OP that was short of any derogatory or distracting remarks.

However, I'd be more than happy to post pics of my forearms after the aforementioned workout, before and after, and then perhaps you could post pics of your forearms so that you could discredit mine?

In sum: If my advice is retarded, then why do I have ridiculously large and strong forearms?

And in the future, perhaps you could reach deeper into the depths of your vocabulary and find something less abrasive when you want to falsely belittle me?

TxRedMan

03-23-2007, 02:41 PM

two things that are important here:

when I advocated doing curls with your arms resting on your knees, i'm speaking of an overhand grip so that you're working the muscles on the top of your forearms,

second; when doing hammer curls, i don't lift the weight straight up as i would when doing bicep curls, i bring it more in front of my body. increases the ROM slightly and I prefer it "feel" wise.

Colt McCoy

03-23-2007, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The following is not a "who's dick is bigger contest"

Colt- WTF do you feel the need to interrupt a productive discussion on forearm training by calling my a retard? I don't understand where your hate stems from, as I was offering my advice to OP that was short of any derogatory or distracting remarks.

However, I'd be more than happy to post pics of my forearms after the aforementioned workout, before and after, and then perhaps you could post pics of your forearms so that you could discredit mine?

In sum: If my advice is retarded, then why do I have ridiculously large and strong forearms?

And in the future, perhaps you could reach deeper into the depths of your vocabulary and find something less abrasive when you want to falsely belittle me?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I apologize for the retard remark. I will refrain from making retard comments in the future and do my best to debate the points in a more productive manner. I just find the vast majority of your advice to be so horribly bad that I really think your posts make the threads unproductive. Please don't take that as an insult. It's just my opinion and we just have different views.

Your training advice is just so geared to musclebound juiceheads who can barely walk that it's completely useless for the majority. Not just useless but completely counterproductive.

We've got Dids here, who's trying to lose some weight and get in shape and would like to develop his forearms some, and you give him some kind of maniac forearm workout. How many sets is that anyway? He doesn't need to be spending an extra half hour in the gym working them.

I'm sure your forearms are bigger than mine. Actually even when I worked on my grip a lot and was closing the 200 pretty easily my forearms weren't very big.

Posting pics is not proof of anything. Just like Ash Ketchum's pic doesn't prove anything. I know people that are more muscular than he is who do not work out at all, and probably know people with bigger forearms than you have that don't do any supplementary work at all. It doesn't make any advice they give good either.

kyleb

03-23-2007, 11:23 PM

I think forearm strength is good, but:

[ QUOTE ]
however having very strong forearms can benefit any type of random heavy lifting, hitting a baseball, hitting a golfball, wrestling/fighting, grip strength, etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this is not true.

EDIT: Technically it could be true, but if it's true, then you are swinging a bat/club in a very inefficient manner. The vast majority of the power is recruited from the legs and the core - your arms only position the bat and bring it up to speed.

kyleb

03-23-2007, 11:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As usual TXRedMan's a complete retard. Working to failure, no pain no gain, supersetting, pre-exhausting. go for the "pump" or "burn", hitting the bodypart from every angle approaches are just not the best way to train. His advice is so bad that every time I read one of his posts I'm trying to decide if he's just a gimmick account.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty unacceptable. TxRedMan's experience comes from bodybuilding and bulking up, and as such, his posts reflect that.

wpr101

03-24-2007, 05:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As usual TXRedMan's a complete retard. Working to failure, no pain no gain, supersetting, pre-exhausting. go for the "pump" or "burn", hitting the bodypart from every angle approaches are just not the best way to train. His advice is so bad that every time I read one of his posts I'm trying to decide if he's just a gimmick account.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty unacceptable. TxRedMan's experience comes from bodybuilding and bulking up, and as such, his posts reflect that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I agree. This isn't BBV/OOT where we should be ripping on people for whatever reason. You bring up a good point about how Tx might come from a different school of thought on lifting. I definetly respect his opinion though as he probably has more experience lifting that most of this forum.

Doug Funnie II

03-24-2007, 09:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think forearm strength is good, but:

[ QUOTE ]
however having very strong forearms can benefit any type of random heavy lifting, hitting a baseball, hitting a golfball, wrestling/fighting, grip strength, etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this is not true.

EDIT: Technically it could be true, but if it's true, then you are swinging a bat/club in a very inefficient manner. The vast majority of the power is recruited from the legs and the core - your arms only position the bat and bring it up to speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can say for me, forearm training did make a significant difference in golf driving distance. I was a very experienced golfer before I started lifting though, so I probably was generating as much clubhead speed as I could with my core and legs and my forearm strength was just slacking a bit. Anyways in around 4 months after starting to do forearms I had gained about 20% extra distance on full shots.

slickpoppa

03-24-2007, 11:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think forearm strength is good, but:

[ QUOTE ]
however having very strong forearms can benefit any type of random heavy lifting, hitting a baseball, hitting a golfball, wrestling/fighting, grip strength, etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this is not true.

EDIT: Technically it could be true, but if it's true, then you are swinging a bat/club in a very inefficient manner. The vast majority of the power is recruited from the legs and the core - your arms only position the bat and bring it up to speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your forearms don't generate any power, but if you have a weak grip on the bat/clubclub and it recoils on impact, your power is decreased because you are essentially allowing momentum to be transferred to the bat instead of the ball.

kyleb

03-24-2007, 11:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your forearms don't generate any power, but if you have a weak grip on the bat/clubclub and it recoils on impact, your power is decreased because you are essentially allowing momentum to be transferred to the bat instead of the ball.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but increased strength in your forearms does not give you any more power after a certain point of regular ability to grip and leverage a bat.

AsH_KeTcHuM

03-24-2007, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The following is not a "who's dick is bigger contest"

Colt- WTF do you feel the need to interrupt a productive discussion on forearm training by calling my a retard? I don't understand where your hate stems from, as I was offering my advice to OP that was short of any derogatory or distracting remarks.

However, I'd be more than happy to post pics of my forearms after the aforementioned workout, before and after, and then perhaps you could post pics of your forearms so that you could discredit mine?

In sum: If my advice is retarded, then why do I have ridiculously large and strong forearms?

And in the future, perhaps you could reach deeper into the depths of your vocabulary and find something less abrasive when you want to falsely belittle me?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I apologize for the retard remark. I will refrain from making retard comments in the future and do my best to debate the points in a more productive manner. I just find the vast majority of your advice to be so horribly bad that I really think your posts make the threads unproductive. Please don't take that as an insult. It's just my opinion and we just have different views.

Your training advice is just so geared to musclebound juiceheads who can barely walk that it's completely useless for the majority. Not just useless but completely counterproductive.

We've got Dids here, who's trying to lose some weight and get in shape and would like to develop his forearms some, and you give him some kind of maniac forearm workout. How many sets is that anyway? He doesn't need to be spending an extra half hour in the gym working them.

I'm sure your forearms are bigger than mine. Actually even when I worked on my grip a lot and was closing the 200 pretty easily my forearms weren't very big.

Posting pics is not proof of anything.

[/ QUOTE ] Just like Ash Ketchum's pic doesn't prove anything. I know people that are more muscular than he is who do not work out at all, and probably know people with bigger forearms than you have that don't do any supplementary work at all. It doesn't make any advice they give good either.

WRONG. IT proves that I am awesome, [censored].

Blarg

03-25-2007, 01:07 AM

Few thoughts on this.

1. Forearms, like calves, are strongly influenced by genetics. As is muscle growth in general, but more so for the calves and forearms. I'm sure many of you will recall kids who had big, well-rounded calves even at the earliest part of junior high or in elementary school. Those k ids hadn't even hit their hormonal peaks by far, and the ones I knew didn't do any more physically than anyone else. Arnold mentions the common phenomenon of bodybuilders with calves like sticks, and mentions the tough time he had getting his own calves to grow compared to the rest of him. So in this thread we have a lot of DOH yer dumb! kind of a vibe going out between posters, when the truth is, the answer to how easy it is to build forearms depends tremendously on the person.

2. The wrist rollers are indeed a huge stressor on the shoulders. Lock your arms out parallel to the ground with a five puond weight, elbows straight, for just two minutes, and you'll see. Not a lot of people can hold the wrist-roller out for long, definitely including people in great shape. Btw, I did these extremely regularly for years and while they could hurt plenty, they gave my forearms vascularity but no size at all.

3. Forearm strength does not translate directly into grip strength. If you feel your grip slipping while you are doing deadlifts, work on your grip specifically, not on wrist curls. I found that working with handgrippers made deadlifts easy. Realize that when you close a #2 Captains of Crush gripper, you are closing about 200 pounds with ONE hand, and doing it through a long range of motion. This is much harder than a static hold on 400 pounds of barbell, even though the bell is indeed moving a bit.

4. Try levering. An 8-pound sledgehammer will give your forearms a very fierce -- and fast! work-out. From reading grip fanatic forums, I understand that you can decent carryover effect to some other grip and forearm intensive things, as well as armwrestling and just plain bodybuilding. Just move your hand closer to the handle or further away from it to get a harder or easier work-out. A shorter, five-pound hammer can also be a good way to zap parts of yoru forearm that you may not want to chance hitting with something as big as an 8-pounder. Great for completists, but you don't really need it. The 8'er will destroy your forearms pretty fast. Keep in mind that you can also lever it backwards, with the hammer coming out from the bottom of your hand, too.

Colt McCoy

03-25-2007, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As usual TXRedMan's a complete retard. Working to failure, no pain no gain, supersetting, pre-exhausting. go for the "pump" or "burn", hitting the bodypart from every angle approaches are just not the best way to train. His advice is so bad that every time I read one of his posts I'm trying to decide if he's just a gimmick account.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty unacceptable. TxRedMan's experience comes from bodybuilding and bulking up, and as such, his posts reflect that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I agree. This isn't BBV/OOT where we should be ripping on people for whatever reason. You bring up a good point about how Tx might come from a different school of thought on lifting. I definetly respect his opinion though as he probably has more experience lifting that most of this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already acknowledged the retaed remark was out of line. I had already apologized and sent him a PM to that effect.

The retard remark aside, I wasn't ripping on him for no reason. I was ripping on his advice because I think it will hurt people's progress. I'll continue to rip on advice I think is bad. I'm sure he'll do the same if he disagrees with my advice, and that's fine.

The problem I have with his advice is that regardless of your goals (be they bodybuilding, strength training, sports-related, or just wanting to look good at the beach) I think the vast majority of his advice is completely counterproductive for anyone who's not at least an advanced bodybuilder and on the juice. As far as I know, that doesn't fit anyone here. If that does fit anyone here, then they probably don't need it anyway.

cbloom

03-25-2007, 01:18 PM

Okay, so what if I want to improve real functional grip strength and don't care about forearm size?

I know a lot of rock climbers and those f**kers can grip like suction cups, I'd love to have more real finger/hand strength.

Fingertip pushups anyone?

SmileyEH

03-25-2007, 01:22 PM

pullups on doorframes, pullups on bars using fewer fingers etc.

TxRedMan

03-25-2007, 03:28 PM

When hitting a baseball or a golf ball especially, there's a point in the swing where your hands still haven't released but you're very close to hitting the ball. In that split second where you release your hands you're generating a lot of power, and a lot of golfers who hit the ball a mile are efficent in maximizing that release, which, is performed by the grip and forearms.

ImStraight

03-26-2007, 08:11 PM

Blarg,

If you have some know how about grippers, I'd appreciate a some suggestions on a good way to gauge where to start in the gripper series.

I don't know if out of the 7 levels I should start at 2-4 or what would be best. Hrm... Worst case I can just get a lighter one and do high reps to get really toned forearms.

Blarg

03-26-2007, 08:46 PM

I started a thread a while ago about these. It should be a good starting point.
Captains of Crush OOT Thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2860475&page=0&fpart=1&v c=1)

Note that the COC's don't have 7 levels -- they have only 4 regular levels plus a Trainer.

Few men can close a #2 without training, and most men have trouble on the #1. Because you can get very good work-outs doing negatives on grippers too hard for you, and because you can do some warming up and high rep work to develop hand toughness and work up your endurance and vascularity on grippers too weak for you, you have plenty of leeway in getting your grippers. When I started, I couldn't even close a #1, but still got tremendous value from doing negatives on both a #2 and a #3. And the trainer is still good, too.

I'd suggest most guys start with three grippers -- one that's just right or a little easy, one that's too hard, and one that's superhard. But I wouldn't advise anyone buying a #4. That's just a freakshow level of hardness. Get a #1, #2, to start if you only want two. Add a #3 if you want to do hard negatives -- which are the fastest way to build up strength. Get a trainer if you want to, as well.

Also, study up on contrast baths. They can add a lot to your health and safety if you really get into gripping, and by drastically increasing your rate of recovery, can drastically increase your rate of strength improvement, too.

I've written a bit about contrast baths here, but you can also search the dragondoor.com forums for some extensive write-ups on them, under my same name.

ImStraight

03-26-2007, 08:59 PM

Blarg,

I spot a guide and a sport model. Guide seems marginally harder than cheapo store models. IIRC from what I've read the #4s are just brutal.

I'll look into the contrast baths and see what happens.

Blarg

03-27-2007, 12:05 AM

Guess I'm outta date then. Looks like they added more models. Good luck in your progress. It's kinda cool how quickly you can get really strong with gripping.

mr_whomp

03-27-2007, 03:43 AM

Deadlift

El Diablo

03-27-2007, 05:03 AM

Dibs,

While I'm not sure how much sense it makes for a guy who is just casually working out to do forearms, when I played tennis seriously we did some forearm stuff. Besides the curls and a couple other things mentioend above, one I haven't seen mentioned is we used to take a curl bar and rotate it. Basically hold it straight up and down in front of you and then rotate it to horizontal. Does that make sense? Anyway, that was a tough exercise that worked the forearms pretty good.

1C5

03-27-2007, 10:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Guess I'm outta date then. Looks like they added more models. Good luck in your progress. It's kinda cool how quickly you can get really strong with gripping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blarg, can you close #3 yet? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I did good last year but then of course stopped doing forearms but am back now.

Got my COC and my sledgehammers and am ready.

Blarg

03-27-2007, 10:55 AM

No, never did the #3. I slacked off and on and off for a while now. I guess I've gotten kinda distracted by life -- job's real hard lately, but it's quieting down a bit now. I'm gonna put more time aside to get back to being in good shape again now. I want to go to Sears or a hardware store to get a sledgehammer in the next week or so. I have been traveling as part of my job too much lately, and I couldn't take a sledgehammer with me! I've been looking all over for the great Igloo coolers I had for contrast baths -- one gallon tall cylinders, perfect for fitting a whole forearm in, or most of one.

Dids

03-28-2007, 12:44 AM

There's one of those "has hella grips and pulleys and can bet set at different heights" thingys at my gym. What's good using that?

Of the lifts Colt mentions, I'm doing row, but not deadlifts and shrugs.

nutsflopper

03-28-2007, 05:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There's one of those "has hella grips and pulleys and can bet set at different heights" thingys at my gym. What's good using that?

Of the lifts Colt mentions, I'm doing row, but not deadlifts and shrugs.

[/ QUOTE ]

as a beginner, you really shouldn't be worrying about forearms or targeting any other individual muscle. You should be doing compound movements such as deadlifts and your forearms will follow.

kyleb

03-28-2007, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's one of those "has hella grips and pulleys and can bet set at different heights" thingys at my gym. What's good using that?

Of the lifts Colt mentions, I'm doing row, but not deadlifts and shrugs.

[/ QUOTE ]

as a beginner, you really shouldn't be worrying about forearms or targeting any other individual muscle. You should be doing compound movements such as deadlifts and your forearms will follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I've always said, if all you do is squats and deadlifts, you're doing better than 90% of the people in the gym.

Blarg

03-29-2007, 06:06 PM

Especially with contrast baths, your forearms/hands can handle a very high workload, and it's not a bad idea to train them even for a beginner. It's actually very encouraging, as you can make truly stunning increases in grip strength even in two or three weeks, and keep going quickly from there. That can definitely inspire people.

TxRedMan

03-30-2007, 02:25 AM

My forearm routine works for me:

(this is 'cold', i.e., not after/during a workout)

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/TxRedMan/382.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/TxRedMan/381.jpg

Thremp

03-30-2007, 03:37 AM

Tx,

That is so meaningless, I want to gouge my eyes out. Please stop posting photos as "proof". I think Thirddan sent a better message with his "stop being a bitch" post (of which the warning I don't agree with as I think this forum could use a more aggressive tone).

Blarg

03-30-2007, 12:29 PM

You're right that the photos are kinda meaningless, but I think you overrate aggression.

TxRedMan

03-30-2007, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tx,

That is so meaningless, I want to gouge my eyes out. Please stop posting photos as "proof". I think Thirddan sent a better message with his "stop being a bitch" post (of which the warning I don't agree with as I think this forum could use a more aggressive tone).

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, let's look at it from your point of view.

My forearm training schedule and regimen and the exercises I use for forearms is not validated by the pics I posted.

So it would be easy to extrapolate from that thought that there is no way to validate anything. Afterall, if pictures that show the results of my training don't provide any "proof", then what does?

I mean this with entire sincerity and honesty, and no slight is intended although it will surely be sensed- I have the feeling that you discount the pictures of my forearms b/c you feel your knowledge is superior to mine but your results/physique/strength levels are not. Therefore, if I try and demonstrate the results of my work through pictures, it will trump what you say, b/c you can't or don't want to provide any evidence to back it up.

If you won't address any of that, at least tell me this:

If the pics of my forearms don't provide "proof" that my forearms workouts are intense and effective- then are you trying to say I just naturally have forearms like this?

How in the hell does a picture not offer any proof?

And before you rip on me again, I challenge you to post pics of yourself. Since you've got such a wide base of knowledge with details on so many specific issues that contrast so brightly against mine, perhaps you'd care to show what that info has done for you, personally.

I have a feeling you're just another arm chair personal trainer like I see at 24 hour fitness.

Knows everything but for some strange reason.....can't apply it.

SmileyEH

03-30-2007, 04:15 PM

Tx, no one is arguing your forearm workouts aren't "intense" or "effective", we are all just saying they are completely pointless for almost anyone.

skunkworks

03-30-2007, 05:04 PM

To be honest Tex, I think you're lucky to be blessed with good genetic ability and good tolerance for volume in training. All the advice you've given has tilted toward ridiculous amounts of punishment that a lot of people can't take. I'm sure you get good results with it, but I think you may not fully understand how much of that is due to your own good fortune.

Basically, what you think works for you is certainly working. Maybe not for the reasons you think it is, but regardless, it is. However, I have serious doubts about whether I would be able to sustain that sort of effort without overtraining, and I also think that you are deluding yourself into thinking that your program is ideal for everyone. Most people can't bounce back from the sort of volume you advocate.

Thremp

03-30-2007, 06:46 PM

Tx,

And you juiced which hides a lot of personal error in training. That and I think you advice is very poor. Most of your volume guidelines seem to have been lifted from Flex and MD.

TxRedMan

03-30-2007, 11:42 PM

Thremp-

Probably 90% of all people who have ever juiced do not look like they have juiced.

Furthermore- If I took 10mg of d-bol/day for 6 weeks, would you call that juicing?

Point being there's such a huge gap between what I did and what I could have done.

Thremp

03-30-2007, 11:52 PM

Tx,

1) I agree. Most people suck at it.
2) No, I would not.
3) I would assume you were able to reach past the point of your natural limit. This is one of the reasons some "natural" organizations don't accept people or have debate about participants who've ever done steroids in the past.

In terms of long term retention, being that at this point I'm delving into pure conjecture, if you are already near your genetic potential (in terms of weight strength etc) and are relying on steroids to bump you past that to give you a new baseline there is little benefit moving from ~1g a week to ~3g a week and beyond (You can sub increased dosage for increased length or whatnot).

theblackkeys

04-03-2007, 06:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Deadlift

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but what do you do when grip strength is a weak point in your deadlift? I'd like to keep both palms facing me for as long as possible.

Is the captains of crush gonna help me keep a deathgrip on the barbell? Would I get better results by loading a barbell with varying weights and holding it for varying lengths of time?

Blarg

04-03-2007, 01:49 PM

Yes, grippers work directly on what you need to do in order to hold onto a barbell. You will get MUCH stronger, extremely quickly with them, especially if you do heavy negatives with a gripper one or even two steps over what you can close at present. Merely holding a weight in a deadlift for a few seconds is trivial compared to actually having to squeeze shut a tough gripper or even hold one from opening. Holding weight in deadlifts rapidly becomes trivial for people who work grippers.

You can try endurance holds with weights if you like, but holding a weight is far easier than closing a gripper of equivalent tension.

You can also work with thick bars to give your forearms a constant work-out. Many people swear by the results of those.

cbloom

04-03-2007, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You can also work with thick bars to give your forearms a constant work-out. Many people swear by the results of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love the full-body theory, but I find if I do stuff like this it just means I can't finish sets because my grip fails, which keeps me from hitting other stuff hard enough.

I guess I'm gonna start bombing grip one day a week on an "off" day.

Blarg

04-03-2007, 05:03 PM

Get into contrast baths and you can definitely do it more than that, with no worries.

theblackkeys

04-04-2007, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, grippers work directly on what you need to do in order to hold onto a barbell. You will get MUCH stronger, extremely quickly with them, especially if you do heavy negatives with a gripper one or even two steps over what you can close at present. Merely holding a weight in a deadlift for a few seconds is trivial compared to actually having to squeeze shut a tough gripper or even hold one from opening. Holding weight in deadlifts rapidly becomes trivial for people who work grippers.

You can try endurance holds with weights if you like, but holding a weight is far easier than closing a gripper of equivalent tension.

You can also work with thick bars to give your forearms a constant work-out. Many people swear by the results of those.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now I probably have a weakish grip compared to most, because I have small hands. But I don't want to spend 40 bucks right off the bat on the trainer and #1.

So should I get the trainer or #1? I'm leaning towards the #1 because I won't outgrow it as quickly. Thoughts?

Blarg

04-04-2007, 01:55 PM

Don't hesitate to get a gripper that may be too hard for you. You can make VERY quick progress through the lower level grippers, so what's hard now won't be hard for too long. In as little as a couple of weeks or months, you can outgrow a lower level gripper.

And being too hard is not bad at all. You may find, like many do, that your fastest progress by far comes from doing negatives on grippers that are too hard for you. Close them by pressing against your leg or hip, or using two hands. Then hold them for time, or slowly release them under careful control, either the way it feels natural or for a certain number of seconds. You can even get results from training with a gripper two or three levels too high for you(I could get some killer work-outs on the #3 when I couldn't close the #1).

So think of the trainer as your one to save for later. It is still good for building up endurance and vascularity, though, and laying in the groundwork of toughening the hands and letting the tendons and ligaments catch up to your quick strength increases, most of which comes from muscle at first. In fact, you may be more likely to eventually injure yourself if you do not slow down at some point to let tendons and ligaments catch up, because the increase in hand strength can be so explosive that it far outpaces your tendon/ligament growth, leading your muscles to make promises your structure isn't really ready to back up yet.

So you see, getting the hard gripper is good, but just taking some time to let everything adapt has definitely got its place too. It's also of course nice to have a warm-up gripper, or one you can even file down to practice the narrow range of the close.

theblackkeys

04-04-2007, 04:50 PM

Thanks very much for the advice blarg. I just ordered the #1, if I find I need the trainer, I will get that in about a month.

How often did you train with these? Everyday? I think I'm going to do it after my workouts, so 3 days a week.

Blarg

04-04-2007, 05:03 PM

IF and ONLY if you do contrast baths, you can do it five days a week if you want to -- I did, back when I still had my ice chests. (Gotta go find the same ones, been looking for a while -- they were cylinders, had the perfect shape.) Contrast baths really are almost miraculous. If not, three days a week will probably be fine. That might be too much for some people, but hands and forearms do recover pretty quickly naturally, as they're meant to be used constantly.

Be cautious, always. Never handle a gripper in a way that might make a strong one spring open uncontrollably in your hand. Grippers can be so much fun, and you can improve so quickly, that it's easy to go nuts with them and forget caution.