Ab exercises [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

XXXNoahXXX

03-16-2007, 11:25 PM

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For serious,

No that is not true. It also depends on your exercise. I can do a squat equivalent of most people abs routine 2x a day with no rest as well. Doesn't mean its good.

People avoid high intensity ab routines for some reason. I don't get it.

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Yeah this seems to be a huge mistake people make. They apply principles to their entire bodies and then for some reason do abs 5x week, minimal intensity.

I always felt that my abs were best when I did 1 day a week of weighted, high-resistance training,which left my abs sore and then another day or two of just crunches/flutters after my cardio, nothing too major.

kidcolin

03-16-2007, 11:32 PM

What's a high intensity ab workout?

I basically do what my physical therapist showed me. Usually 2 sets of 20 of various ab exercises in which you lay on your back and focus on holding your pelvic tilt. I do 3 or 4 different exercises.

-sk00lb0y-

03-17-2007, 12:51 AM

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What's a high intensity ab workout?

I basically do what my physical therapist showed me. Usually 2 sets of 20 of various ab exercises in which you lay on your back and focus on holding your pelvic tilt. I do 3 or 4 different exercises.

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Intensity is the difficulty. Volume is the amount. High volume is ok wiht low intensity. and High intensity is ok with low volume. If im not clear ( which i don't think i am) someone help.

for serious

03-17-2007, 04:56 AM

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With weight or resistance of any kind? To failure? How many sets?

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I do one set of each to failure with no resistance

Thremp

03-17-2007, 12:30 PM

Intensity is the % of your 1RM that you are working at.

hotbacon

03-17-2007, 02:06 PM

really good one:
get on a decline bench and do sit ups. do them in a way that you can only do like 6-10 per set (like any other lift). put a 35 lbs plate on your chest or whatever if you need to.

best one i've ever done:
negative sit ups. get a partner and a decline bench. start by doing a sit up to the top (no weights or anything), then once you reach the top have your partner try to pull you back down, while you try to stay up. once he pulls you all the way down, sit back up and repeat. this is even better if you have someone else with focus mits hitting your stomache when you get all the way down.

I did these exercises just once a week, and noticed MUCH more improvement than I ever had doing a circuit every other day where I did planks and leg lifts and all that stuff.

tdarko

03-17-2007, 02:35 PM

Thremp is right but so is the idea of working them out 3-5 days even if you are mixing in high intensities. It is very difficult to fatigue the abdominal muscles so much that they need time to recover. You are always working with the weight of your torso and with a limited range of motion which is much different than other exercises. Also, there isn't a worry that the muscles will get too big since the abdominal is a very thin muscle compared to the gluts, hamstrings, deltoids, biceps, quads etc.

You should be incorporating high intensity ab routines and you should also work your abs out 3-5 times a week without worry that it is too much.

Also, if any of you are stabilizing your feet when doing crunches, please stop. Your abs have gone from doing much of the work to about 15% of the work, now the iliopsoas is locked in and the muscles around it around it are doing the work, instead of your abdominals.

7ontheline

03-17-2007, 04:20 PM

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Also, if any of you are stabilizing your feet when doing crunches, please stop. Your abs have gone from doing much of the work to about 15% of the work, now the iliopsoas is locked in and the muscles around it around it are doing the work, instead of your abdominals.

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I definitely notice this when I am on a decline bench doing crunches/situps but then how do work the abs with significant resistance? If I'm on that bench I have to anchor my feet to something obviously - suggestions for improving this exercise or a trying a different one would be great.

Green Kool Aid

03-17-2007, 09:33 PM

Does anybody have any good specific ab workouts that are meant to be done everyday?

I think my routine kinda sucks.

slickpoppa

03-17-2007, 10:02 PM

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Does anybody have any good specific ab workouts that are meant to be done everyday?

I think my routine kinda sucks.

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Why do you want to work abs everyday? There are two components to really good looking abs: 1) low BF, 2) large abdominal muscles. You do not get large abdominal muscles by working them everyday. Look at marathon runners. They've got twigs for legs and run 50 miles a week. You do not get big muscles by using those muscles constantly. You get big muscles by working them hard and letting them recover. There is nothing special about abs that makes them grow by working them out constantly.

Green Kool Aid

03-17-2007, 10:05 PM

slick,

i just care about having good stability and core strength, which i now lack.

so....an everyday ab workout would be ideal.

slickpoppa

03-17-2007, 10:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
slick,

i just care about having good stability and core strength, which i now lack.

so....an everyday ab workout would be ideal.

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You don't get strength by working out a muscle every day either. If you want good core strenght, do heavy russian twists (ie no more than your 10 rep max) on a decline bench once a week. And I hope you are also doing some combination of squats, DL's, standing overhead presses, and overhead squats, cause those will strengthen your core like no other.

Thremp

03-18-2007, 12:34 AM

tdarko,

Abs not. 3-5 is horrific overtraining.

kidcolin

03-18-2007, 08:11 PM

slick,

What you're saying is true, but some daily training can be fine to get things going. That's what tons and tons of physical therapists prescribe to their patients. I'm one of them. I went in with some lame-ass office related back troubles. I was given some ab exercises to do twice daily. After a couple of weeks I was noticeably stronger and my lower back pain subsided. Now I'm looking to get into what you suggest: training less but harder.

Also, it's a nice alternative for those of us who don't go to the gym (be it time, money, whatever). It takes about 10 minutes to do a simple, efficient, workout. Obviously it won't lead to the strength gains of squats and whatnot, but it's not like every physically fit person ever went to the gym 3-4 times a week.

GKA,

My ab exercises. Take them for what they're worth. In all of these, focusing on maintaining your pelvic tilt is the key. That means your lower back flat on the floor. If you lie on the floor and hold that position, you should feel a slight burn. You have to hold that position throughout the whole motion of the exercise.

Exercise 1: laying on the floor, knees bent. Bring you feet as close to your ass as possible. Hold your pelvic tilt position. Then alternately lift each leg and bring it down. 1 rep is both legs.

Exercise 2: same position, but less bend in the knees. This one is hard to describe in writing. There isn't much motion. You're basically slightly bringing your chest and shoulders up and forward without really moving your head or neck. You should feel the burn in your upper abs.

Exercise 3: crunches. This is a solid video: link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxqSHdVLri8)

Exercise 4: Same position. Lift your knees to your chest. On the return, keep your feet elevated and don't let them touch the floor. This one is easy if you let your pelvic tilt position slip, so be sure to focus on that. Your back should always be flat on the floor.

tdarko

03-19-2007, 10:24 AM

slickpoppa,

Actually marathon runners (well serious one) have sinewy legs and or big legs abnormal for their size since they are usually small in stature or they just have large legs compared to their body. Marathon runners have small torsos and body weight b/c the goal is to not lug around weight for 26 miles b/c this equals decreased time. There are exceptions though.

Thremp,

You are wrong and I gave the reasons why. You can't just throw blanket statements out there and not back them up, this is what I study and though I will always be up for learning something new (which is why I read this forum more than I post) the fact still remains that your abdominal muscles are incredibly tough to overtrain for my reason stated. Not every muscle is trained the same, i.e. there is no reason to lift large amounts of weights to strengthen the rotator cuff b/c it is a very very small muscle that can only get so big and will never get any bigger, you are wasting your time yet you see people in the gym killing themselves over muscles that don't matter to them.

FWIW, I do a high intensity ab routine twice a week. I work my abs one other day. I hardly qualify 3 days a week as overtraining.

Lucas Was Right

03-19-2007, 11:34 AM

First, the whole notion of "overtraining" generally refers to overtaxing the CNS, not individual muscles. People talk about "overtraining" their abs and getting each bodypart enough rest, but the real problem is with overtaxing your central nervous system.

Split routines prevent overtraining by taxing your CNS on days when you're doing heavy squats and deadlifts and giving it a "rest" on days when you work smaller bodyparts like on your bicep day.

If you're training properly, none of your bodyparts should require "a several day resting period." Most people doing split routines don't train each bodypart nearly often enough. The standard split that trains each bodypart once a week that is espoused in Muscle & Fitness and the rest of the muscle magazines is just stupid. You don't need to beat the hell out of your body to make it grow.

Instead if beating the crap out of each muscle once a week, stop training to failure. Instead try training each bodypart hard 2-3 times a week with abbreviated workouts and avoid going to failure.

Oh, and get yourself one of these:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4753/sprtallexerciseequipmenor7.jpg

cbloom

03-19-2007, 12:07 PM

Okay peoples, if you want to do just heavy ab work to failure - what exercises should you do?

tdarko

03-19-2007, 01:00 PM

Lucas Was Right,

That is actually how my workout is designed but mine is sport specific.

Also wanted to add that Slickpoppa has the most correct quote in this thread in reference to creating abs yet. He states that lowering body fat % is how you get abs which is the truth. The best quote I have ever heard in regards to this is, "You get abs in the kitchen, not in the gym."

Blarg

03-19-2007, 01:52 PM

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I've always heard that with abs you can workout consecutively and don't require a several day resting period. Is this simply a myth or is there truth to this idea?

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This depends on your body and also very much on what you are doing. Ie multiple weighted sets, or max ot sets, or flat crunchs to failure.

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Yup. Try using the exercise wheel from a standing, knees locked position, and in a short period of time your abs will be pretty toasted and you'll be sore the next day. Do sit-ups and you may be able to do hundreds, and feel fine the next day.

Thremp

03-19-2007, 03:58 PM

tdarko,

Lets not try to jazz up what you said. 3-5 times a week of high intensity ab training is overtraining. For some reason you feel that your preferred advice isn't good enough for someone such as yourself though. Is it because amateur athletes have different needs than recreational athletes?

Though I agree with your rotator cuff example I don't feel it is exactly very pertinent.

tdarko

03-19-2007, 04:49 PM

Thremp,

One big reason it is difficult to overtrain the abs is the inability to progressively overload. On a bench you can keep adding weight, enough weight that is close to your 1 rep max like you mentioned. High intensity ab exercises are trickier and high intensity doesn't really mean what it means in other parts of the gym. If you add weight to your ab workout suck as on an ab machine or holding plates etc. there will be a point in which your lower back will injure before your abs will overtrain/fail. This is fact and I am not just saying this, this is how the body works.

As far as athletics go, as a pitcher, during the season we do ab work every single day. Workouts as a pitcher aren't about looking good btw but about performance and your ab work is about strengthening the core. When you pitch you use your stomach and lower back a ton and there is a tremendous amount of torque put on those areas that ab work is necessary everyday or you will start to break down.

But in the offseason it is a 3 day a week thing for me. I actually talked to my strength trainer about this today, he was the strength and conditioning coach for the Cowboys in the 90's when they won their Super Bowl's, before that he was w/ the Mavericks. He is probably the best in Dallas and he agreed with everything that I said and also said there is much more you could go into but he didn't b/c we started our workout.

Thremp

03-19-2007, 05:25 PM

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there will be a point in which your lower back will injure before your abs will overtrain/fail.

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This is just false.

Probably >90% of the people on this board can train to failure. Or train at >70% intensity without any worry of back problems.

TxRedMan

03-19-2007, 06:31 PM

The reasoning behind this is that youe abdominals are constantly being used, b/c they stabilize your core and are involved in the most routine movements such as bending over and standing up, thus people think they can be trained more often. For some guys, they can train anything 4x a week and still grow/recover, but for most it's not so. If you plan on doing a heavy ab program- i.e., lower rep sets, then allow a normal amount of time to recover, at least 48 hours. I doubt very seriously you'll notice any difference in how long you wait to train your abs provided you're not still sore, b/c it's difficult to train abs heavy, whereas high volume workouts are readily available. IMHO if you want to train abs lightly 5x a week it's fine. It's not going to be detrimental to your abs if you don't let them get 72 hours recovery time between each session.

cbloom

03-20-2007, 02:23 AM

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Okay peoples, if you want to do just heavy ab work to failure - what exercises should you do?

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Still curious.

BTW long ago I bought the "Big Book of Abs" and did the routines there, which are pretty much high volume / high intensity, (eg. trying to do 20 minutes with no rest of various hard ab exercises), and I got a ripped 6 pack very fast, so YMMV

tdarko

03-20-2007, 12:10 PM

Thremp,

"Probably >90% of the people on this board can train to failure. Or train at >70% intensity without any worry of back problems."

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, or more likely I am not explaining myself very well. I actually never said you can't do abs till fail, you can and should b/c of how well your abs recover. You selectively quoted only the second part of what I wrote and in the first part I talk about adding weight until you injure yourself. The reason everyone on this board can do abs until fail at >70% intensity (including myself) is b/c they are either not using weight or using the correct amount of weight and not progressively overloading their body which is standard b/c your body tends to let you know when this is happening. Like I said originally it is tough to progressively overload this muscle which is different than the rest of your body.

Thremp

03-20-2007, 02:26 PM

tdarko,

I didn't understand the first part, which is why I didn't comment on it. And now I'm not really sure I'm understanding what you are saying at all.

Let me try and explain what I'm saying. Recently I started moving away from doing sit-ups etc to doing hanging leg lifts. I haven't done a max or tried anything of the sort, and there are also some ROM issues with doing this, but safe to say its a fairly high intensity exercise as the most I'm doing in a set is ~8. Here I can progressively overload very easily by increasing ROM each exercise, cutting rest, adding sets or reps, wearing heavier shoes (increasing resistance) etc to achieve progressive overload. At no point do I think my lower back is going to implode before I train my abs to failure.

After rereading with what you wrote, I might agree with it. I think it'd be more similar to your rotator cuff example. IE there's rarely ever an reason to be doing max effort lifts, but there is also little reason for doing sets 3x30 rep schemes. Though abs are much easier to attempt max effort BW movements with through a variety of gymnastic movements. Though I do agree with what you said. I probably will never try to sling 2 45s on my chest and do one max effort sit-up, but I'm sure there are some cool gymnast things out there that would have a similar intensity.

Rev. Good Will

03-20-2007, 09:50 PM

all,

I have something similar to this:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4753/sprtallexerciseequipmenor7.jpg

and it gives me back lower back pain/discomfort

Aside from leg lifts and crunches, I can't do any ab exercises without discomfort or pain in my lower back.

any suggestions?

FWIW, I have a slender build, and have long limbs.

maniacut

03-20-2007, 10:31 PM

Why do you have pain and discomfort in your lower back when doing ab work? I'm not a doctor but maybe you should see one.

So if you don't need to see a doctor maybe you need to strengthen your lower back? the easiest lower back exercise I know is to lay on your stomach with your arms extended in front of you (not to the sides) and then raise any of your limbs off the ground until you feel it in your lower back and hold for a few seconds. You can raise any combo of limbs to hit the muscle. try it

cbloom

03-20-2007, 10:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the easiest lower back exercise I know is to lay on your stomach with your arms extended in front of you (not to the sides) and then raise any of your limbs off the ground until you feel it in your lower back and hold for a few seconds. You can raise any combo of limbs to hit the muscle. try it

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Ah yes, we call that one "the nut crusher".

Colt McCoy

03-21-2007, 09:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
all,

I have something similar to this:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4753/sprtallexerciseequipmenor7.jpg

and it gives me back lower back pain/discomfort

Aside from leg lifts and crunches, I can't do any ab exercises without discomfort or pain in my lower back.

any suggestions?

FWIW, I have a slender build, and have long limbs.

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Try tightening your entire ab/low-back core area when you use it. As mentioned you probably just need to strengthen your lower back.

[ QUOTE ]
the easiest lower back exercise I know is to lay on your stomach with your arms extended in front of you (not to the sides) and then raise any of your limbs off the ground until you feel it in your lower back and hold for a few seconds. You can raise any combo of limbs to hit the muscle. try it.

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The "Superman" is a great exercise for building some minimal strength in your lower back. Try lifting all your limbs simultaneously or alternating opposing arms & legs.

kidcolin

03-21-2007, 09:22 PM

You need to keep your back straight.

I mentioned the pelvic tilt position when doing crunches. Try doing that, except obviously you're back isn't against the floor yet.

Chances are it isn't your back muscles.. you're slender so you're not putting a lot of strain on your body. People's backs are generally strong enough (they work all day). Most likely it's your form. Poor form is probably putting stress on areas it shouldn't.

I had a similar problem with push-ups where I'd get sore in my mid-back area. My physical therapist pointed out my poor form and said to make sure your abs are tight and your back is straight. Since then no problems.

AsH_KeTcHuM

03-21-2007, 09:42 PM

the best 2 ab exercises BAR NONE are the swiss ball pike, and hanging leg raises (from arm slings)... look them up and do em twice a week. you will be STRAIGHT

kyleb

03-21-2007, 11:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the best 2 ab exercises BAR NONE are the swiss ball pike, and hanging leg raises (from arm slings)... look them up and do em twice a week. you will be STRAIGHT

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Hanging leg raises are the nuts. Good call.

delta k

03-22-2007, 03:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the best 2 ab exercises BAR NONE are the swiss ball pike, and hanging leg raises (from arm slings)... look them up and do em twice a week. you will be STRAIGHT

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Hanging leg raises are the nuts. Good call.

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So weird...I just finished doing some from my pull-up bar on the door and was going to mention them in this thread. They are great stuff.