*The Gym* Health and Fitness (and how you can lose weight, fatso)

[kyleb]

This thread’s intention is to describe the health and fitness routines and logs I keep for personal training purposes, and what you can do to become a healthier person (not just lose weight). A little background on me: I’m 23 years old, male, 6’0”, 200 lbs, and I’m training to become a baseball player. When I moved to Seattle 12 months ago, I was about 230 pounds with a high bodyfat percentage – it came with the territory of working from home, eating poorly, and never exercising. Pretty standard stuff, all things told. Sick of being fat (and starting life anew in Seattle), I joined 24-Hour Fitness and started taking the weight loss drug Phentermine. This drug suppresses the hunger signal by switching on your fight-or-flight response. It’s effective, although the side effects are similar to high doses of caffeine – it is, after all, a low-grade amphetamine.

After losing 40 pounds within a few months, I eventually decided to start playing baseball again. What follows are my health and fitness routines for my path to become a stronger, faster, and more fit baseball player.

My Exercises: Becoming a Better Athlete

My exercise plan can be found here:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6388/kyleworkoutig6.jpg

Not included in this plan are the following exercises:
• Wind sprints (3 times per week as part of a HIIT program)
• Pitcher mirror work (5 days per week)
• Pitching lessons (1 day per week)
• Bullpen – Long Toss – Baseball Skills Workout (1 day per week)
• Stretching, random core work (various throughout week at home and office)

The muscles used in most baseball activities are in the core and the legs – not the arms. When people say “that kid’s got a cannon arm,” it’s really due to his good mechanics, genetic ceiling for velocity, and his strong core/leg muscles. This is really the case in most sports and physical activities – your strength mostly comes from your back, abs, obliques, and legs; your arms are merely stabilizers and initial force levers.

When I’m in the gym, I do my best to get in and out as quickly as possible. The gym is not for socializing – it is for busting your ass to get results. Also, I don’t waste time with exercises that have no practical application in my skill set. These would include, but are not limited to: Triceps extensions, curls, leg extension, and many other machine-based workouts. I want all of my exercises to work out the key muscles I need to succeed on the diamond.

That being said, if the only workouts you do are the full squat, deadlift, and power cleans, you’ll be doing yourself a huge favor. These are the three best workouts that work your core, legs, and upper body via stabilizer muscles.

Lastly, even though this exercise log is pretty detailed, you should seek to vary your routines from day-to-day. Sometimes I’ll run 2 miles on the treadmill instead of the elliptical, some days I’ll do push-ups instead of bench press, and sometimes I’ll throw in a few sets of chest fly workouts instead of cable rotation.

My Diet: Adding lean body mass and dropping fat pounds

I use a food timing schedule for eating – which is to say, I do my best to eat 4-6 times throughout the day while restricting myself to 2000 calories. Here’s a sample spreadsheet you can use:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3886/kylefoodlt1.jpg

You can also add fields and checkboxes for multivitamins or other supplements that you might be taking. Here’s the list of supplements I am taking, and why:

• General Multivitamin – Good to take these daily, for all people
• Conjugated Linoleic Acid – Has been linked to reduced bodyfat and increased muscle
• Taurine – Free-form amino acid taken because of…
• (unnamed) Thermogenic – This thermogenic raises body temperature and helps burn fat as a result. I will elaborate on this further down.
• ZMA – Zinc/Magnesium/Aspartate. Developed by BALCO (ha, ha); taken at night ZMA can help increase lean body mass, raise testosterone and IGF-1 levels.
• Optimum Nutrition Protein Shake – Fortified with BCAA’s, these help ensure that muscle mass is added and allows for better fat burning.

A thermogenic is a product that will raise your body temperature and increase your metabolic rate. The end result is more calories expended, and hopefully most of it comes from your fat stores. Examples include ephedra/ephedrine (often in combination with caffeine and aspirin – better known as the ECA stack), Xenadrine, and other OTC fat burners that jack up your heart rate. I won’t name the thermogenic I use for both advertising purposes and the fact that it requires a prescription if used on humans, and I’d rather not disseminate that information for potential abuse.

As for general diet rules, I try to stick to lean meats, a good amount of carbs, and low fat products. I have cut out almost all caloric intake for drinks, and drink a fair amount of water throughout the day at work and any physically-intensive environment. Eating multiple small meals throughout the day helps to regulate your insulin levels, and your body can more efficiently use the calories when it is spaced out as such. In doing this, you will lower the amount of calories stored as fat. Hopefully it is obvious to you that eating 2000 calories a day over 5 meals is a lot healthier than 2 large meals from Wendy’s and McDonald’s, so this principle should be easy to grasp. This might be the number one most important part of weight loss – eating a lot of small meals often. The other is developing a good cardio plan and sticking to it.

So, what can you do?

The previous paragraphs mainly illustrate a diet and workout plan for me, who aims to become a better athlete. However, I realize that most of the people interested in this information are white-collar sedentary types with no aspirations to become an athlete – and that’s fine.

Here are some common myths I’ve run into on this board and from the general public (and believed in many of them myself):

• Lift heavy weights for mass, light weights more often for tone. Lifting heavy weights is the best way to maximize your workout in the gym, get your heart rate going, and help your body burn fat. Lifting heavy weights will increase your overall body tone, power, and strength, while multiple reps of lighter weight will only serve to increase endurance. This is not really what you want if you want to lose weight.
• Don’t do resistance training – only do cardio to lose weight. Lifting heavy weights while running a caloric deficit will not only help you lose weight quicker, but will also add to your general lean body mass. Gaining muscle is a good thing – you should not be focused on the scale weight. You should be focused on becoming an overall healthy individual.
• As long as I eat 2000 calories a day, I’ll be fine! Like I said above, you need to eat multiple healthy meals throughout the day (even just a piece of fruit can count as a meal) and get good nutritional value (aided by supplements) to help you lose weight quickly.

Remember at the onset of your decision to lose weight – this will be a lifestyle change, not a single event. You will need to be in the gym three days per week and eating healthy for the rest of your life. A reasonable goal is to lose 1.5 pounds per week. There are 3500 calories per pound of fat, so you need to run a 5250 calorie deficit per week via diet and exercise to achieve this goal. (I don’t recommend eating less than 1700 calories per day.)

To find out your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR), you can use a rough calculator found here:

http://health.discovery.com/tools/calculators/basal/basal.html

Using the values above, you can see that my BMR is about 2100 calories if I was totally sedentary. This is a good number to use if you basically sit at a desk or play online poker for a living. I shoot to eat 2000 calories per day and burn about 400-750 calories per day in my various workouts, depending on the load. Therefore, I’m running a 3500 calorie deficit per week if you use a value of 500 calories/day, and should expect to lose 1 pound per week. Several things can affect this number, however, including the use of supplements (mainly thermogenics).

Finally, I should say that building lean mass is important for losing weight. Just simply dropping pounds is not good enough – having a goal weight and such is really detrimental to your psychological and mental states. Your weight can vary by 3-7 pounds per day just based on what you’ve eaten, water levels, and time of day. Stick to the plan of becoming an overall healthy individual by gaining muscle and losing fat, and lose sight of the scale. Log all your progress (and failures too – be honest!) in both dieting and exercising, and you’ll see that you can really motivate yourself by sharing this data with others to help keep you on the plan.

Good luck – if you have any questions, feel free to ask. If others are interested, I will start a food/exercise log here or in another forum until The Gym (my proposed forum) is opened for everyone on TwoPlusTwo (check About The Forums for the link and show your support!).

[1C5]

I have similiar goals to you and am also an athlete.

I would like to see your diet on a typical day, # of calories and what foods/supplements.

[PartyGirlUK]

What are your thoughts on phentermine and how easily available in the US is it

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
I have similiar goals to you and am also an athlete.

I would like to see your diet on a typical day, # of calories and what foods/supplements.

[/ QUOTE ]

I noticed you are taking in 4000 calories, which I definitely understand. I am trying to get leaner as a pitcher and to quicken me on the basepaths, so I'm cutting calories.

A typical day of food might be:

-Wheat cereal and fat free milk
-Healthy choice microwave deluxe pizza (lots of protein in these, believe it or not)
-Apple slices with peanut butter
-2-3 protein shakes with fat free milk or water
-6" turkey breast sandwich from Subway with olive oil but no cheese
-Green beans, sugar snap peas, and carrots

I named all the supplements in the post, though.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
What are your thoughts on phentermine and how easily available in the US is it

[/ QUOTE ]

Phentermine is easy to obtain without a script in the United States - the official page is at www.phentermine.com (http://www.phentermine.com) which can guide you to safe and legitimate places to order from.

If you are obese, then Phentermine is probably for you. It worked well and motivated me to get my ass in the gym and stopped me from eating total garbage at all times. However, I don't recommend it for most people.

[onthebutton]

I'm interested, what are your goals as far as baseball is concerned?

Good thread btw, lots of good info here.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested, what are your goals as far as baseball is concerned?

Good thread btw, lots of good info here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to start throwing at my college peak velocity again, which was in the mid-80's. I would like to hit a significant amount of doubles and steal a significant amount of bases, and become a very good amateur league player.

Anything above that would be just a bonus.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]

As for general diet rules, I try to stick to lean meats, a good amount of carbs, and low fat products. I have cut out almost all caloric intake for drinks, and drink a fair amount of water throughout the day at work and any physically-intensive environment. Eating multiple small meals throughout the day helps to regulate your insulin levels, and your body can more efficiently use the calories when it is spaced out as such. In doing this, you will lower the amount of calories stored as fat. Hopefully it is obvious to you that eating 2000 calories a day over 5 meals is a lot healthier than 2 large meals from Wendy’s and McDonald’s, so this principle should be easy to grasp. This might be the number one most important part of weight loss – eating a lot of small meals often. The other is developing a good cardio plan and sticking to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try a high protein, high fat, low carb diet instead. Everyone and their mother thinks fat is bad for you. Wrong. Fat is good for you. Eat a lot of fat. Does fat spike insulin and make you store it? No. Do sugar/starch/processed foods? Yes.

These threads are really getting tiresome. How you look, how fat you are, etc, are all a function of your diet. I don't understand why time and time again people fail to understand this. Stop eating processed food, stop eating starch, you will lose weight, you will have to fight, constantly to KEEP WEIGHT ON. I lost about 20 lbs without going to the gym when I stopped eating processed food and bread/rice/pasta/potato/starch. I eat these foods periodically (once every 2 weeks or so) not because I miss them, but because I don't have a choice in specific dining settings. I actually don't miss them, I feel like [censored] when I eat them now. It's your body telling you that it wasn't built to eat processed food.

"Eat meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar."

If people followed this advice, every diet pill/diet book/diet program, the entire industry would go out of business. Luckily, they have nothing to worry about because the answer has been in front of our eyes all along, most of us are just too stupid/inept to pick up a book and realize it.


I could go on and on but I'm tired of typing. Bottomline, no one should be on a low fat diet and the only people that can get away with heavy carb eating are olympic/professional athletes because they are so active. This does not mean the carbs. are good for them.

/rant

[LuckOfTheDraw]

On average, how many grams of fat do you think you intake daily?

[thirddan]

thanks for the post...

kind of lame, but i love peanut butter, but its pretty high in fat and super high in calories for small amounts...i figure enough regular jif or whatever to put on a normal sized apple is like 3 servings worth or around 400-500 cals, wtf...is there a way to get around this? some magical brand you get?

[AZK]

45-90

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the post...

kind of lame, but i love peanut butter, but its pretty high in fat and super high in calories for small amounts...i figure enough regular jif or whatever to put on a normal sized apple is like 3 servings worth or around 400-500 cals, wtf...is there a way to get around this? some magical brand you get?

[/ QUOTE ]

Try the peanut butter at TJs, less sugar. The almond butter they have is also pretty good.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
Try a high protein, high fat, low carb diet instead. Everyone and their mother thinks fat is bad for you. Wrong. Fat is good for you. Eat a lot of fat. Does fat spike insulin and make you store it? No. Do sugar/starch/processed foods? Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is this: People who intake a lot of fat also intake a ton of carbs. Most people find it very, VERY hard to give up bread and other things. This is just not a feasible diet for most people, especially ones that are working out or are budding athletes.

Furthermore, I disagree (as do many) that eating a lot of fat in general is fine. It's easily stored in the body, and by cutting carbs drastically, you can lower your total energy levels, which is simply not good no matter what.

Again, the idea should be to be healthy - not lose weight. Cutting out carbs in general is not healthy.

[fluffpop62]

[ QUOTE ]

• Lift heavy weights for mass, light weights more often for tone. Lifting heavy weights is the best way to maximize your workout in the gym, get your heart rate going, and help your body burn fat. Lifting heavy weights will increase your overall body tone, power, and strength, while multiple reps of lighter weight will only serve to increase endurance. This is not really what you want if you want to lose weight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth (given that I opened this thread, you didn't force me to read it), but why should we believe you about that? Where is your source? I subscribe to two women's fitness magazines and they pretty much stick to low weight, high reps for tone. they do agree that weight training is helful to supplement cardio, FWIW.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
On average, how many grams of fat do you think you intake daily?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, probably about 30g, though I shoot for less.

[1C5]

cool, thanks.

are those pizzas good tasting? how much fat in them?

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

• Lift heavy weights for mass, light weights more often for tone. Lifting heavy weights is the best way to maximize your workout in the gym, get your heart rate going, and help your body burn fat. Lifting heavy weights will increase your overall body tone, power, and strength, while multiple reps of lighter weight will only serve to increase endurance. This is not really what you want if you want to lose weight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth (given that I opened this thread, you didn't force me to read it), but why should we believe you about that? Where is your source? I subscribe to two women's fitness magazines and they pretty much stick to low weight, high reps for tone. they do agree that weight training is helful to supplement cardio, FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bodybuilding.com, T-Nation, etc, etc. It's well-known, to be honest.

I will admit that I don't know a lot about women's health, and it could be drastically different because higher levels of fat are both acceptable and necessary on women.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
cool, thanks.

are those pizzas good tasting? how much fat in them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they're really good. Here:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/8673/00460xz2.jpg

360 calories
Amount/Serving %DV*
Total Fat (4g) 6%
Saturated Fat (1.5g) 8%
Trans Fat (0g) 0%
Cholesterol (5mg) 2%
Sodium (460mg) 19%
Vitamin A 15%
Calcium 25%

[kyleb]

And furthermore, AZK, being fat is not only a function of your diet - just cutting calories without exercise is a great way to lose lean body mass as well. There is such a thing as being "skinny fat," as Thremp likes to point out.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Try a high protein, high fat, low carb diet instead. Everyone and their mother thinks fat is bad for you. Wrong. Fat is good for you. Eat a lot of fat. Does fat spike insulin and make you store it? No. Do sugar/starch/processed foods? Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is this: People who intake a lot of fat also intake a ton of carbs. Most people find it very, VERY hard to give up bread and other things. This is just not a feasible diet for most people, especially ones that are working out or are budding athletes.

Furthermore, I disagree (as do many) that eating a lot of fat in general is fine. It's easily stored in the body, and by cutting carbs drastically, you can lower your total energy levels, which is simply not good no matter what.

Again, the idea should be to be healthy - not lose weight. Cutting out carbs in general is not healthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose I should have been more clear. I have not cut carbs. I have cut processed carbs. I consume about 140g of carb a day...that's a lot. It's all vegetables/fruit, on average a banana/apple a day, and 2 lbs. of carrots/broccoli/other random veggies. Since giving up processed carbs. I find that I have more energy and I'm more clear-headed (less of that food coma fog after meals).

[kyleb]

Oh, processed carbs. Yeah, that's certainly fine. Limiting processed carbs as much as possible is definitely a good thing.

[yellowdoyle]

[ QUOTE ]

Try a high protein, high fat, low carb diet instead. Everyone and their mother thinks fat is bad for you. Wrong. Fat is good for you. Eat a lot of fat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone thinks carbs are bad for you. Wrong. Carbs are great for you. They are your bodies most efficient source of energy. Eat a lot of carbs. What does this mean? Whole wheat, un refined carbs. Eat fruit, whole wheat bread, whole wheat pasta, brown rice, etc etc. Carbs get such a bad name cause morons can't differentiate between the processed junk and the unrefined goodness.

AZK has the same idea with fats. Fats are also good for you. Just avoid your saturated fats. Eat lots of mono and poly fats. Very energy dense to help you with workouts and other things.

To the poster who talked about peanut butter:

PB is also great. It does have some saturated fat, but it is full of good fats. Also a good amount of protein. But please, DO NOT buy regular PB, get all natural which does not contain any "partially hydrogenated oils." That is trans fat, which your body apparently is unable to process/burn.

Good luck everyone!

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
And furthermore, AZK, being fat is not only a function of your diet - just cutting calories without exercise is a great way to lose lean body mass as well. There is such a thing as being "skinny fat," as Thremp likes to point out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you stop working out, but are only eating enough food (energy) to provide for your lean body mass (feeding the muscle, not the fat) you will not lose all of your lean body mass. I wasn't working out because I hurt my wrist, I have since gotten back into the routine. I am not advocating a no gym/workout policy, I'm just saying, quickest way to lose weight (and it is healthy) is your diet. The gym is not going to keep you skinny, your body is incredible at it's ability to adapt. What you put into it is what you are going to get out of it.

[kyleb]

yd,

He clarified in his last post.

[LuckOfTheDraw]

On another health and fitness thread, I picked up using fitday.com (http://www.fitday.com) from someone, and I've been using it for a couple weeks. It's a nice way to log calories/fat/carbs/protein. For the last year or so, I've been counting calories (as it turns out with decent accuracy) but I've never really kept good track of the others. While being diligent to record everythign I eat, logging the foods like this has given me much more insight into my diet.


Overall, I thought you post was very good Kyle. I agree about the "low carb" thing. I personally strive to get about 40% of my calories each day from carbs and about 35% from protein and 25% from fat.

Another thing, <= 2000 cal/day may be right for most people, but if you have a slightly larger frame, don't try to force yourself to eat too few calories. Kyle mentioned this, but I just want to reinforce it. You really should just focus on the deficit. Find out how many calories you burn each day and anything around 400-700 cal/day less than that is fine. When I've been putting on muscle while losing weight, I've found it easiest to just take a little time off from heavy weight loss and eat more. I've even gone through periods of 200-300 cal/day deficits for about a month at a time. It just helps me stay in control of myself.

Edit: I just made my journal public so you guys can take a look at some of the features of the site. linky. (http://fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=Mike%5FMcCulley)

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth (given that I opened this thread, you didn't force me to read it), but why should we believe you about that? Where is your source? I subscribe to two women's fitness magazines and they pretty much stick to low weight, high reps for tone. they do agree that weight training is helful to supplement cardio, FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fluff, in all seriousness, those women's workout mags have been one of the greatest disservices to female fitness in America. They pretty much all emphasize low weight high-rep workouts, and targetted "firming" workouts for things like abs & butt. That is pretty much 100% wrong. That's a good workout if you're already in very good shape and want to just maintain, like what a model would do. If you're an average girl and want to lose weight and improve your fitness the #1 most important thing to do is squats, for a million different reasons. You can burn more calories in less time than any other workout. You increase your BMR and encourage your body to be anabolic instead of catabolic - calories you consume go to muscle instead of energy storage. etc. etc. If all those celebrity workout tapes were burned tomorrow and the women of America started doing Jack Lalane's workout, I wouldn't have to look at so many fatties.

ps. Men's fitness books (not magazines) are the best source for accurate information. They good ones get their information from real scientific research not the "common sense wisdom" of some practitioner.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Carbs are great for you. They are your bodies most efficient source of energy. Eat a lot of carbs. What does this mean? Whole wheat, un refined carbs. Eat fruit, whole wheat bread, whole wheat pasta, brown rice, etc etc. Carbs get such a bad name cause morons can't differentiate between the processed junk and the unrefined goodness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Carbs are good for you. I wouldn't exactly label whole wheat pasta, whole wheat bread as good though. It is entirely manufactured, despite keeping some nutritional value it still lacks a lot. It is not natural. Your body was not built to eat bread - whole wheat or not. Fruit/Vegetables are much more efficient and don't spike your insulin as much. Not to mention all of the other wonderful things they have in them that are completely lacking in bread/pasta.

[ QUOTE ]
Just avoid your saturated fats

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, not necessarily true. Studies are popping up in a lot of places saying saturated fats from natural sources (meat) are good for you and help keep you thin.

[yellowdoyle]

AZK and Kyle,

Okay, I see now. I guess i take too long when replying to posts.

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]
the only people that can get away with heavy carb eating are olympic/professional athletes because they are so active. This does not mean the carbs. are good for them.


[/ QUOTE ]

AZK while you're mostly right, this is totally inane. There are tons of amateur athletes (such as myself occasionally) that burn 4000-6000 calories on hard workout days (maybe more). The only way to fuel yourself for those workouts is with carbs, and the best way to get that many calories in a healthy diet is with carbs.

IMHO the best way to think about it is to consider meat & veg your base food, and carbs are your fuel. If you're not working out much, you don't eat carbs. The harder you're working out, the more carbs you eat for fuel.

Whether or not a diabetic's diet (Atkins/South Beach) is healthy for the average person long term is an open question; it definitely increases the chance of kidney ailments, gout, etc. though that may be balanced by better overall health and better insulin levels. Certainly you can lose a lot of weight on that diet.

Whatever, a lot of this is personal preference and whatever way you find to be healthy is probably fine.

[yellowdoyle]

AZK,

wow I am slow at replying.

re: saturated fats. I still take in a decent amount of these, primarily from peanut butter I would say. But when we say eating fat is fine I just felt a little clarification is good. I will definitely eat things with sat. fat, I just try and watch my intake. With mono and poly I am much less worried about what level I take in. The only fat I eat none of is trans fat.

About the bread and pasta, can you please expand on that? I eat lots of fruit and vegetables, so I do get plenty of good carbs and other things via them, but I also eat a fair amount of pasta and bread. Whole wheat bread has great "stats" so to speak, but I know that doesn't tell the entire story.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the only people that can get away with heavy carb eating are olympic/professional athletes because they are so active. This does not mean the carbs. are good for them.


[/ QUOTE ]

AZK while you're mostly right, this is totally inane. There are tons of amateur athletes (such as myself occasionally) that burn 4000-6000 calories on hard workout days (maybe more). The only way to fuel yourself for those workouts is with carbs, and the best way to get that many calories in a healthy diet is with carbs.

IMHO the best way to think about it is to consider meat & veg your base food, and carbs are your fuel. If you're not working out much, you don't eat carbs. The harder you're working out, the more carbs you eat for fuel.

Whether or not a diabetic's diet (Atkins/South Beach) is healthy for the average person long term is an open question; it definitely increases the chance of kidney ailments, gout, etc. though that may be balanced by better overall health and better insulin levels. Certainly you can lose a lot of weight on that diet.

Whatever, a lot of this is personal preference and whatever way you find to be healthy is probably fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that quote, I was refering to processed carbs. I used to read about the stacks of pancakes athletes would eat, toast, etc... those carbs are unhealthy any way you slice it, i don't care if you are burning 5000 cal. a day. You want to go eat 5 lbs of broccoli, 3 apples, a bushel of bananas and top it off with some strawberries go right ahead, you will see no criticism from me. That being said, more than 200g of carbs a day (professional marathon runner or not) is unhealthy for the human body. Human bodies were not built to metabolize a heavy carb. diet. Have you tried eating a lot more fat (olive oil, almonds, walnuts) and comparing your workout levels with a high fat vs a high carb diet? I think you'd be surprised. Yes if you are strictly eating meat the gout, kidney issues are a problem, but that is a lot of meat, I'm not saying replace the carbs with meat, i'm saying replace them with fat. Also the vitamins/minerals/coenzymes that you pick up from eating all that fruit/vegetables will probably keep your body from developing kidney ailments, gout, and other things associated with a high protein diet.

[Thremp]

fluff,

"Tone" is what women are calling the same thing bodybuilders are calling "density". No one wants to look "soft". The whole idea is that you want to look like you have muscle. Women have higher levels of body fat which inhibits this, but heavy weight makes far more gains than lighter weight. The whole "light weight for toning" should really be "light weights for people who are lazy". Keep in mind this is all in reference to your 1RM. Like if you can only bench ~85 lbs. 70lbs would be "heavy" for you. Also you can't develop that much mass if your life depended on it without steroids. Its not possible. So don't worry about getting "too big".

All,

Some suggestions for athletes for GPP (General Physical Preparedness) which is like cross training but cooler.

Wheel Barrow Carries - Fill a wheel barrow up with stuff and wheel it around. Develops a very strong core.

Chopping Anything - Firewood is practical, but a sledgehammer and a used tire is the gold standard for this exercise. Again another bit of core work.

Overhead Carries - Life something heavy and walk around with it. Kegs, kettle bells, large and unsteady objects. Same general idea as before.

Side Note: While bulking, eating "clean" is very very overrated. If you have trouble gaining weight, do not hesitate to eat the entire pizza while watching a sporting event.

[Nepa]

I have a pretty simple plan and I have lost about 15 lbs. in the last 5-6 weeks.

Oatmeal for breakfast 4-5 times a week eggs or pancakes the other days.

Lunch
Most days a turkey sandwich w/ mustard NO MAYO
Water instead of soda.

Dinner
lots of Chicken, Fish and Veggies. Not fried.


NO TRANS FATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I'll say it again NO TRANS FATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!One more time NO TRANS FATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Weight yourself every morning and watch the pounds come off.

I have not really started to exercise yet but I'm planning on starting in the near future. Good luck!

[anklebreaker]

AZK, not all carbs are equal. Same with fats. (Edit:Late reply)

Fluffpop, like kyleb said, it's well established. "Low weight, high rep for tone" is one of the biggest and oldest myths.
Quick Link (http://dietandbody.com/exercise/2007/01/top-10-weight-loss-and-exercise-myths.html)

[1C5]

Tis true, I am bulking now (obv with 4000 calories) and am about to have some pizza and watch the end of the hockey game.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]

About the bread and pasta, can you please expand on that? I eat lots of fruit and vegetables, so I do get plenty of good carbs and other things via them, but I also eat a fair amount of pasta and bread. Whole wheat bread has great "stats" so to speak, but I know that doesn't tell the entire story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I just started doing a lot of research and reading, and the more I read the more I got into this idea of your body has evolved over time to eat certain things. Bread/rice/pasta were not around back in the day, your body has not yet evolved to come up with efficient methods to process and utilize these foods (nor should it have to considering they are lacking nutritional value compared to what your body is used to, fruits and vegetables) and this is why people have HTN, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, cancer, etc... It is a function of your diet. These foods overwhelm your body, chronic disease is nature's way of telling you something isn't right. Try just consuming veggies/fruits as your carb sources for 2-3 weeks. See how you feel. If you don't feel noticeably better compared to eating bread/pasta I'd be surprised. Just try to cut out all the unnecessary processed food that you eat and just eat raw....you'd be surprised. I'm really not trying to type out a bible here, but check out The Paleo Diet by Cordain he has a site as well just google his name...

[ianlippert]

[ QUOTE ]
About the bread and pasta, can you please expand on that? I eat lots of fruit and vegetables, so I do get plenty of good carbs and other things via them, but I also eat a fair amount of pasta and bread. Whole wheat bread has great "stats" so to speak, but I know that doesn't tell the entire story.


[/ QUOTE ]

[diddle]

Good Lord how I wish women would do squats instead of spending an hour on the elliptical. Goodbye flabby cottage cheese legs.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
AZK, not all carbs are equal. Same with fats. (Edit:Late reply)

Fluffpop, like kyleb said, it's well established. "Low weight, high rep for tone" is one of the biggest and oldest myths.
Quick Link (http://dietandbody.com/exercise/2007/01/top-10-weight-loss-and-exercise-myths.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great link.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
Good Lord how I wish women would do squats instead of spending an hour on the elliptical. Goodbye flabby cottage cheese legs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only use the elliptical because of left knee damage from a youth soccer incident, although I have been running a few miles once or twice a week along with the elliptical trainer.

What really gets me about the elliptical trainer is the people holding on to the handles and reading a magazine. I mean, seriously - you are removing a ton of weight from your legs so you aren't even doing anything, and if you can [censored] read Glamour, you aren't working out hard enough.

[thirddan]

might as well ask here...

i do cardio about 2x a week and lift 3/4x a week...my cardio routine is basically to do 20 min or so on the treadmill @ around 4mph (130bps heart rate), i do read a book during this...then i do 12-15 minute of high intensity intervals on a stair stepper (1 min on 1 min off), then either bike or treadmill again for 10/15 min as a cool down...what say you experts?

[LuckOfTheDraw]

[ QUOTE ]
might as well ask here...

i do cardio about 2x a week and lift 3/4x a week...my cardio routine is basically to do 20 min or so on the treadmill @ around 4mph (130bps heart rate), i do read a book during this...then i do 12-15 minute of high intensity intervals on a stair stepper (1 min on 1 min off), then either bike or treadmill again for 10/15 min as a cool down...what say you experts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't 4 mph just about a brisk walk? Other than that, I'd say you have a solid medium level cardio work out, it definitely would suffice, though I might bump it up to 3-4 per week.

[kyleb]

Seriously, enough of that book [censored]. Make it all high-intensity. You should be able to carry on a short conversation, but not read a book.

[LuckOfTheDraw]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, enough of that book [censored]. Make it all high-intensity. You should be able to carry on a short conversation, but not read a book.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think to maintain a decent level of fitness, his workout is fine. I don't get the feeling he's tyring to be hardcore about everything.

[kyleb]

Yeah, I guess, but seriously just walking (especially on a treadmill where the machine kicks your legs back) is, I dunno, pretty useless.

[AZK]

I would scrap the 4mph 20 min tread mill, and the stepper and instead pick a routine that forces you to work and sweat. How much do you think you are burning doing the same routine everyday/week. Your body is machine, it's goal is survival and efficiency. Why do you think running gets easier the more you do it? Your body conditions itself to the stress/trauma you are putting on it by working out/exercising. What does this mean in lay mans terms? The first mile you ran made your body work harder than the mile you run today, etc...

What does this mean you need to do to keep your body working? VARIETY. Change your routine, do things that force your body to struggle to adapt, to change, keep changing so your body can't get used to a routine. The sooner it adapts the more work you have to do for the same effect. Food for thought.

[kyleb]

I definitely agree with AZK here. Your cardio should be varied - running, elliptical machine, biking, swimming, plyometrics, sports; changing it up really helps.

[LuckOfTheDraw]

Yep, and of course there are always sports. It would be nice to replace at least 1 workout per week with a fun exercise of a sporting nature. On that note, I'm thinking of taking up X-country skiing for a good winter activity.

[kyleb]

That sounds pretty tough. Should work well!

[fluffpop62]

WHY DO YOU ALL HAVE TO BE SO LOGICAL!?

edit: how accurate are calorie counters on cardio machines?
edit again: are my legs supposed to be open or closed with squats?

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]

edit again: are my legs supposed to be open or closed with squats?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

edit again: are my legs supposed to be open or closed with squats?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

lolza

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
WHY DO YOU ALL HAVE TO BE SO LOGICAL!?

edit: how accurate are calorie counters on cardio machines?
edit again: are my legs supposed to be open or closed with squats?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Because we are men. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
2) Not bad - fine if you are using rough BMR calculators as well.
3) Slightly open.

[fluffpop62]

ok i am doing squats, i hope you are happy.

edit: ty not named dan!! i am going to forego a barbell becuase i am doing them while i blowdry my hair. also if those calorie counters are accurate (and yes i put my weight in correctly and did not lie, tempting as it was), i burned 1100 calories today /images/graemlins/smile.gif
edit again: i am doing lunges also in case anyone wants to mimic my workout .

[thirddan]

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSquat.html - squat info

[LuckOfTheDraw]

Speaking of calorie counters on machines, I own a stationary bike, and if it tells me my wattage along with total calories burned. Anyways, after about an hour at 150 W I total around 900 calories, according to the bike. However, according to fitday.com, it's only about 500 calories. And, according to other online sources, it's closer to around 600 calories. Furthermore, 1 W = 1 J/s = .86 kcal/hour. So 150 W should be about 129 kcal/hour. What the hell is going on here?

[anklebreaker]

[ QUOTE ]

edit: how accurate are calorie counters on cardio machines?
edit again: are my legs supposed to be open or closed with squats?

[/ QUOTE ]

> Only if you enter your weight accurately.
> Here's a great vid: Hundred Dollar Baby 1:12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViIJ0hBzRz4)

Sweet Dee kicks ass.

[fluffpop62]

didn't you see my edit already, ankle? i do put my weight in correctly, if only because i know that if i say i'm as heavy as i am it will say i burned more calories then if i lie and say i'm lighter then i am.

[SmileyEH]

great thread kyle, I'm not sure if you've just started your routine or have been at it for a while. If the latter what sort of progress have you made so far strength/fitness wise?

also everyone listen to what AZK says about nutrition.

[kyleb]

I've been on and off it, changing things around, but finally cemented this workout schedule after a lot of travelling interrupted it. I've added significant amounts of lean mass while losing fat pounds, have gained overall sport-specific endurance and performance, and I'm about 40% of the way there to becoming a very solid amateur-level pitcher.

Pretty good progress so far!

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSquat.html - squat info

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy in the animation isn't squating deep enough. Also, can I reccomend the mother of all squats the overhead squat (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/OverheadSquat.html). I've never seen someone comfortably overhead squat just the bar their first time. Probably the best core and shoulder stabilization exercise possible.

[leehrat]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, enough of that book [censored]. Make it all high-intensity. You should be able to carry on a short conversation, but not read a book.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh come on kyle it's all about where your heart rate is if all you want to do is burn fat. if you're not doing HIIT who cares if you read a book? i keep my heart rate around 130-135 while doing my morning cardio and reading 5x/week; i couldn't care less about my cardiac stamina if i'm just trying to look good. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, enough of that book [censored]. Make it all high-intensity. You should be able to carry on a short conversation, but not read a book.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh come on kyle it's all about where your heart rate is if all you want to do is burn fat. if you're not doing HIIT who cares if you read a book? i keep my heart rate around 130-135 while doing my morning cardio and reading 5x/week; i couldn't care less about my cardiac stamina if i'm just trying to look good. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing with that whole myth is that even if your only goal is to burn fat than the 130-135 hr zone still sucks. The intensity is so low you hardly burn any calories at all - even though they are primarily fat. If you up the intensity so that you burn 4 times as many calories total (remember you burn more throughout the day because of an elevated metabolism) it doesn't matter if the proportion of total calores is half that of the "fat burning zone" - you still burn twice as many "fat calories".

[leehrat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, enough of that book [censored]. Make it all high-intensity. You should be able to carry on a short conversation, but not read a book.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh come on kyle it's all about where your heart rate is if all you want to do is burn fat. if you're not doing HIIT who cares if you read a book? i keep my heart rate around 130-135 while doing my morning cardio and reading 5x/week; i couldn't care less about my cardiac stamina if i'm just trying to look good. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing with that whole myth is that even if your only goal is to burn fat than the 130-135 hr zone still sucks. The intensity is so low you hardly burn any calories at all - even though they are primarily fat. If you up the intensity so that you burn 4 times as many calories total (remember you burn more throughout the day because of an elevated metabolism) it doesn't matter if the proportion of total calores is half that of the "fat burning zone" - you still burn twice as many "fat calories".

[/ QUOTE ]

if i'm doing my cardio before breakfast i'm not going over 70% HR or i'll get really catabolic. and there's no way in hell i can burn 4x what i'd burn at 130-135 by going high-intensity. it is true that HIIT would give me an overall higher metabolism throughout the day, and i certainly don't chide those who do it, since both ways have their merit. but light cardio before breakfast has always worked for me in my spring cutters and it will work again this year. kyle just made a blanket statement and i'm kidding around.

[LuckOfTheDraw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, enough of that book [censored]. Make it all high-intensity. You should be able to carry on a short conversation, but not read a book.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh come on kyle it's all about where your heart rate is if all you want to do is burn fat. if you're not doing HIIT who cares if you read a book? i keep my heart rate around 130-135 while doing my morning cardio and reading 5x/week; i couldn't care less about my cardiac stamina if i'm just trying to look good. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing with that whole myth is that even if your only goal is to burn fat than the 130-135 hr zone still sucks. The intensity is so low you hardly burn any calories at all - even though they are primarily fat. If you up the intensity so that you burn 4 times as many calories total (remember you burn more throughout the day because of an elevated metabolism) it doesn't matter if the proportion of total calores is half that of the "fat burning zone" - you still burn twice as many "fat calories".

[/ QUOTE ]

linky (http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5387/tempsx5.jpg)
corresponding linkage (http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2557/tempge0.jpg)

It's actually a lot more complicated, I suggest you read Chapter 12 from here. (http://riley.nal.usda.gov/nal_display/index.php?info_center=4&tax_level=4&tax_subject=25 6&topic_id=1342&level3_id=5141&level4_id=10588)

[leehrat]

is that a good song ima check it out

[Freakin]

where does Shultzys and ipanema fit into all of this?

[LuckOfTheDraw]

It's OK. I like some of Dj Cam's other, chiller music more. This song's a little up tempo, kinda like a lot of Squarepusher stuff.

[nuggetz87]

[ QUOTE ]
ok i am doing squats, i hope you are happy.

edit: ty not named dan!! i am going to forego a barbell becuase i am doing them while i blowdry my hair. also if those calorie counters are accurate (and yes i put my weight in correctly and did not lie, tempting as it was), i burned 1100 calories today /images/graemlins/smile.gif
edit again: i am doing lunges also in case anyone wants to mimic my workout .

[/ QUOTE ]

1100 calories all on cardio machines?? did you run for 90 minutes straight or something?

[fluffpop62]

i use elliptical (level 9), treadmill (6.5-7.3mph), treadclimber (3.9, max is 4) and stairstepper (level 12), all at high intensities. well except the treadmill, i'm a pretty slow runner (like 8min30 mile). i pretty much mix them around until i'm tired, usually doing half hr on 2 or 3 of them. today was an hour and fifteen minutes total /images/graemlins/smile.gif
edit: i also do situps and pushups (real ones not girl ones) but find cardio to be the most relaxing, and if relaxing is what gets me to the gym, then that's what i'm going to keep doing!

[nuggetz87]

impressive /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[LuckOfTheDraw]

I can get to 1100 calories in 75 minutes on my stationary bike (this is according to the bike) but it would be a fairly vigorous effort, and I have big strong legs. According to many online sources (see my post above about innaccuracies in calorie counters burning calories at a rate of 150 W) I would probably pass out trying to burn 1100 calories in 75 minutes on that thing. So, I dunno, I don't wanna rain on your parade, but 1100 seems a little high. On the bright side of things, judging by the plethora of your pics spammed over this site, I don't think it really matters much. You look (and hopefully feel) healthy, and that's all that matters.

[fluffpop62]

haha i thought it was high, that's why i asked about the accuracy of the machines.

also keep in mind i have pretty strong legs myself being in ROTC; we have to keep pretty fit.

[LuckOfTheDraw]

AZK,

I'm skeptical, but I'm going to give your diet a shot for 3-4 weeks. Here's what a come up with for a hypothetical day's intake.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4799/tempun6.jpg

No processed food (OK sulfur dried apricots) but it's still got well over 200g of carbs, and this is only 2000 cals. I could easily see going over this more than occasionally.

Edit: I just removed the apricots and doubled the chicken, and it looks a lot better.

[guids]

This is a nice post, i do the same thing as cbloom suggests, meat, fruit, and veggies should be the better part of your diet, if you are trying to lose weight, thats about all I eat (except PWO), then when I maintain/bulk, I keep eating that "base" 2400 cals, and just add some carbs to each meal (oatmeal, potatos, etc).

[El Diablo]

kyle,

Sweet thread. Clean up your PMs.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
kyle,

Sweet thread. Clean up your PMs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Done. Sorry about that.

[yellowdoyle]

AZK,

I checked out the Paleo diet. I am interested in looking at it in more detail. One thing that I want to say up front is just because humans did not eat rice/bread back in the day, that doesn't mean it is necessarily bad for them. I am open to the idea though (that it may not be ideal to eat grains etc).

The Paleo diet itself actually sounds very appetizing to me, but I am currently a veg and on my way to becoming vegan. So the lean meats are not options for me; brown rice, whole wheat bread/pasta are good sources of protein (not so much the rice) for me that also have fiber and other beneficial aspects to them.

I find it intersting that you mention heart disease/cancer/etc. in relation to diet because I just read a book on the subject of diet and health called The China Study. It ends up being a book promoting a vegetarian diet, but my girlfriend bought it for me as a bday gift and I honestly had no idea beforehand what it promoted. So I was wondering if you had read this book or things similar to it and what your thoughts were.

Also, if you could point out any recommendations for a vegetarian model of the paleo diet, I would like to hear it. Obviously cutting out meat of that diet would greatly affect someone if it wasn't replaced properly.

[Thremp]

yellowdoyle,

As a veg and even more as a vegan your diet will always suck and be sub par. Not as bad as a fast food aficionado, but it'll still suck it hard. Good luck.

[SharkTank43]

So instead of eating breads, would low carb wraps and similar things be better options?

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]

When I’m in the gym, I do my best to get in and out as quickly as possible. The gym is not for socializing – it is for busting your ass to get results. Also, I don’t waste time with exercises that have no practical application in my skill set. [ QUOTE ]


I disagree with this to a large extent. Rushing through a workout isn't the correct way to go, and in order to build maximum strength the majority of your sets should be done at 100% capacity. This often means waiting 2 minutes inbetween sets to allow your muscles to recover. I workout at a gym where you get an education in the conversation, and motivation through peers and comaradery.

[ QUOTE ]

That being said, if the only workouts you do are the full squat, deadlift, and power cleans, you’ll be doing yourself a huge favor. These are the three best workouts that work your core, legs, and upper body via stabilizer muscles. [ QUOTE ]


As a baseball player, I don't see how you can possibly be leaving out biceps and forearms.


[ QUOTE ]



• Lift heavy weights for mass, light weights more often for tone. Lifting heavy weights is the best way to maximize your workout in the gym, get your heart rate going, and help your body burn fat. Lifting heavy weights will increase your overall body tone, power, and strength, while multiple reps of lighter weight will only serve to increase endurance. This is not really what you want if you want to lose weight.
• Don’t do resistance training – only do cardio to lose weight. Lifting heavy weights while running a caloric deficit will not only help you lose weight quicker, but will also add to your general lean body mass. Gaining muscle is a good thing – you should not be focused on the scale weight. You should be focused on becoming an overall healthy individual.
• As long as I eat 2000 calories a day, I’ll be fine! Like I said above, you need to eat multiple healthy meals throughout the day (even just a piece of fruit can count as a meal) and get good nutritional value (aided by supplements) to help you lose weight quickly.
[ QUOTE ]


One of the biggest myths involving weight training is that high repetition sets will make you toned. This is just nonsense. Your muscles already have shape, and by doing sets of 12-15 reps you're not going to pronounce that shape. The absolute ONLY way to tone your body is to lose body fat. The truth is that you'll likely gain more muscle tissue through heavier sets, which, will make your body fat % go down b/c of the increase in lean tissue in contrast to the amount of body fat, thus making you appear more toned. High reps does not = toned, ripped, cut, or defined.

[SmileyEH]

You're way off base re; biceps and forearms tex. They are minor muscle groups and get plenty of development doing deadlifts and cleans, kyle can certainly add in some weighted pullups but like he said arms are simply for stabilization in baseball. Here is an article (http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/54_07_riverside_baseball.pdf) by a strength and conditioning coach outlining his lifting program for a D1 baseball team. I see chins and bent rows one day a week each, but notice that the core of the program is squats, cleans and deadlifts - just like kyleb's.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
AZK,

I'm skeptical, but I'm going to give your diet a shot for 3-4 weeks. Here's what a come up with for a hypothetical day's intake.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4799/tempun6.jpg

No processed food (OK sulfur dried apricots) but it's still got well over 200g of carbs, and this is only 2000 cals. I could easily see going over this more than occasionally.

Edit: I just removed the apricots and doubled the chicken, and it looks a lot better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to get carb/protein/fat in every meal, it is going to require some adjustments and it's easier the better you are at cooking, the more flexible your schedule is, the more you care about your health (i.e. willing to shell out $$ for veggies/fruits), but you feel better...or at least I do. Here is basically my meal plan, I can eat the same thing everyday and it doesnt really bother me, so I have minimal variation in my diet, it requires more work if you want to eat different things everyday....I grill about 3-4 lbs of chicken every sunday, boil a dozen eggs, etc so that the only cooking I do during the week is steaming veggies/saute and cooking fish/steak

Breakfast
3 eggs, 1/2 cup cottage cheese, banana

Mid morning snack
larabar, beef jerky

afternoon lunch
TJ's bag of organic veggies (broccoli/cauliflower/string beans) (I eat the entire bag/meal)
Chicken breast
Walnuts/almonds
apple

Dinner
Fish/Steak/Chicken
Another TJs bag of veggies
Avocado/almonds/walnuts

I work out 4-5 times/week, but because I'm just getting back into it, I'm not eating as much as normal. In a few weeks once I can go full volume and intensity, Ill likely throw in a meal or 2 into that diet but it will probably consist of 1/2 cup cottage cheese and some almonds or peanutbutter/apple, etc....not a full meal...

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
AZK,

I checked out the Paleo diet. I am interested in looking at it in more detail. One thing that I want to say up front is just because humans did not eat rice/bread back in the day, that doesn't mean it is necessarily bad for them. I am open to the idea though (that it may not be ideal to eat grains etc).

The Paleo diet itself actually sounds very appetizing to me, but I am currently a veg and on my way to becoming vegan. So the lean meats are not options for me; brown rice, whole wheat bread/pasta are good sources of protein (not so much the rice) for me that also have fiber and other beneficial aspects to them.

I find it intersting that you mention heart disease/cancer/etc. in relation to diet because I just read a book on the subject of diet and health called The China Study. It ends up being a book promoting a vegetarian diet, but my girlfriend bought it for me as a bday gift and I honestly had no idea beforehand what it promoted. So I was wondering if you had read this book or things similar to it and what your thoughts were.

Also, if you could point out any recommendations for a vegetarian model of the paleo diet, I would like to hear it. Obviously cutting out meat of that diet would greatly affect someone if it wasn't replaced properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very difficult, if not impossible to do paleo diet without eating meat. As far as your comment about just because we didn't eat rice/bread doesn't mean it's bad, well it can't be good can it? Or at least not for another million years, when our bodies have gotten used to that staple food and are better adapted towards metabolizing it. Cordain/Paleo following is actually against the vegan type diet, beans are a huge nono on paleo, since they require cooking, consuming raw beans are toxic to your body... You also don't get enough protein in vegan diets, I'm not really sure if there is any adaptable paleo version....soy is bad for you, so what protein sources do you have? Meat is really important, it has been a part of man's diet from the beginning of time, why would you want to cut it out? I'll check out that book next time I'm on amazon.

Also, I don't follow strict paleo, though I'd like to. I still drink alcohol and coffee. I eat cottage cheese and other hard cheeses, but I try to follow it as closely as I can. The coffee thing I don't really buy into and the cottage cheese is sort of a debated topic among the differing paleo-like diets.

[DrewDevil]

I agree this should have its own forum. Good thread kyleb.

I am a fat lard.

[Narcileptico]

Human civilizations have been surviving on diets made up of mainly carbs such as bread, rice, tortillas and yes, even pasta for thousands of years with no ill effects. These are not the enemy; processed foods, HFCS and partially hydrogenated oils are.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Human civilizations have been surviving on diets made up of mainly carbs such as bread, rice, tortillas and yes, even pasta for thousands of years with no ill effects. These are not the enemy; processed foods, HFCS and partially hydrogenated oils are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your timescale is like comparing a marble to the size of the planet. Evolution is not on a 1000 year timescale. It's also pretty hard to quantify "no ill effects".

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree this should have its own forum. Good thread kyleb.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are entire forums on the interwebs solely for this purpose. Kinda like 2+2 is a place where poker dorks come to banter about everything that has nothing to do with poka.

[Narcileptico]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Human civilizations have been surviving on diets made up of mainly carbs such as bread, rice, tortillas and yes, even pasta for thousands of years with no ill effects. These are not the enemy; processed foods, HFCS and partially hydrogenated oils are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your timescale is like comparing a marble to the size of the planet. Evolution is not on a 1000 year timescale. It's also pretty hard to quantify "no ill effects".

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, and how long have humans been eating all the heavy metals found in fish these days, the growth hormones and antibiotics in chicken and beef (yes, even "organic") and all the pesticides sprayed over all those fruits and veggies you eat (yes, even "organic"). I'd be a lot more worried about those much more tangible dangers than a cup of rice, but hey, that's just me.

[AZK]

I'm also worried about getting killed crossing the street, but it's out of my hands. FWIW, all things being equal the average american stands to benefit from eating all the heavy metal poisoned fish they can, since the positives of fish oil and fish in the diet far outweigh the mercury poisoning you are subjecting your body to. I try and eat organic/free range meat/eggs whenever I can, I also go for organic veggies, I know it doesn't get rid of everything, but it's a start. You can't control what they do to food unless you grow your own food, I'm never going to do that. But I can control the ratios of the types of macro nutrients I eat and thus my health to a certain extent.

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree this should have its own forum. Good thread kyleb.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are entire forums on the interwebs solely for this purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but I don't read them.

[Narcileptico]

Yea, but what I'm saying is that nobody knows what the long term effects of eating all that crap are, just like nobody knows the long term effects of eating bread. I guess the point is that if you can eat something and feel and look healthy doing it, that's all that matters, rather than worrying about all the potential side effects of everything.

[shoxbb6]

AZK,
Do you have any tips for vegetarians?

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
AZK,
Do you have any tips for vegetarians?

[/ QUOTE ]

Start eating meat.

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested, what are your goals as far as baseball is concerned?

Good thread btw, lots of good info here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to start throwing at my college peak velocity again, which was in the mid-80's. I would like to hit a significant amount of doubles and steal a significant amount of bases, and become a very good amateur league player.

Anything above that would be just a bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are good realistic goals.

What college did you go to?
What did your throw (mph) in college and what pitches?

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AZK,
Do you have any tips for vegetarians?

[/ QUOTE ]

Start eating meat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha. Beat me to it. First off, ask yourself why you are eating that way, most people get started on misinformation/cool trend/girlfriends. Find out exactly why you are not eating meat. Do research. I read a lot about something when I get interested in it, it's part of my ocd personality. Both my parents have HTN, high cholesterol, heart disease, my dad has blocked arteries, etc, overweight, my brother and I were big eaters, not obses but not fit/healthy. I decided I wanted to try and make a permanent change in my life. I don't want to suffer from a western diet. I decided to read, a lot, first on the internet, then through all the book recs. that get posted in forums, etc... dig down to the essence of why doing xyz is right and doing abc is wrong, you will probably be surprised by what you find out.

[Thremp]

Essentially being a veg is probably almost as unhealthy as insisting you comprise your diet entirely of meat.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially being a veg is probably almost as unhealthy as insisting you comprise your diet entirely of meat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. I was initially going to say that I disagree, but I'm not sure that I do.

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
You're way off base re; biceps and forearms tex. They are minor muscle groups and get plenty of development doing deadlifts and cleans, kyle can certainly add in some weighted pullups but like he said arms are simply for stabilization in baseball. Here is an article (http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/54_07_riverside_baseball.pdf) by a strength and conditioning coach outlining his lifting program for a D1 baseball team. I see chins and bent rows one day a week each, but notice that the core of the program is squats, cleans and deadlifts - just like kyleb's.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

yes, i'm way off base.

pun intended?

lol at both.

[SmileyEH]

Haha. I didnt realize that til after I posted. Just my brilliant subconcious at work.

[kyleb]

tx,

I know you have a lot of experience in powerlifting and training people, but total arm strength is almost useless for pitchers. The only arm exercises I did in my D-I program were basic arm care/endurance reps, like side shoulder raises, supination/pronation, and other light free weight work. Mark Wholers threw 100 mph without ever lifting something heavier than 5 pounds in the gym, and it is very evident in the baseball world that long and lean is optimal for velocity and endurance.

[yellowdoyle]

[ QUOTE ]

It's very difficult, if not impossible to do paleo diet without eating meat. As far as your comment about just because we didn't eat rice/bread doesn't mean it's bad, well it can't be good can it? Or at least not for another million years, when our bodies have gotten used to that staple food and are better adapted towards metabolizing it.

soy is bad for you, so what protein sources do you have? Meat is really important, it has been a part of man's diet from the beginning of time, why would you want to cut it out? I'll check out that book next time I'm on amazon.



[/ QUOTE ]

AZK,

I disagree with a few things here, and have some questions on other things. "...well it can't be good can it?" I do not see how that can really be a logical statement. You are assuming things, or basing that statement on things that you are aware of and I am not. (I am not sure which.)

Soy being bad for you....can you please expand on this? I have looked into the health effects of soy and while it is not a perfect food I would definitely (at this point at least) not say it was bad for someone. I would argue that it is beneficial to someone (similar to your argument for fish), so I will keep eating it.

I also think you mentioned it, but I don't have it qouted above, that veg/vegan diets do not take in enough protein. This I definitely disagree with, and am not sure why you would say that. You really think a conscious veg/vegan could not take in ~50g of protein per day? I myself think that number is a bit high, but I can definitely achieve it without meat or dairy. (This does involve beans and other things not advocated by Paleo methods).

Regarding why I do not eat meat, it is a personal choice regarding population, energy use, animal treatment, and a few other things (including health). With respect to this topic, I do not feel it is necessary to eat meat in order to live a healthy active lifestyle.

Regarding cooked foods, I assume you cook the fish, and you mention cooking the chicken and eggs. I was wondering why the fish and eggs specifically are cooked since the Paleo diet seems to favor raw items.

Regarding the book, please check it out, I would like to hear your thoughts on it.


[ QUOTE ]
yellowdoyle,

As a veg and even more as a vegan your diet will always suck and be sub par. Not as bad as a fast food aficionado, but it'll still suck it hard. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thremp, can you please elaborate on why you think this is true? I appreciate your sentiments, but I really wish you would explain a bit more when you make general statements regarding things sucking and being unhealthy. At this point in time, I obviously disagree with you.

I by no means am a health expert, and I am looking forward to finding out more, but I do feel I can be as healthy as you guys while not eating all the same things.

[kyleb]

yd,

Prolonged intake of soy products can cause depressed levels of testosterone and raised levels of estrogen. I'll let others elaborate.

[pokerraja]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Try a high protein, high fat, low carb diet instead. Everyone and their mother thinks fat is bad for you. Wrong. Fat is good for you. Eat a lot of fat. Does fat spike insulin and make you store it? No. Do sugar/starch/processed foods? Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is this: People who intake a lot of fat also intake a ton of carbs. Most people find it very, VERY hard to give up bread and other things. This is just not a feasible diet for most people, especially ones that are working out or are budding athletes.

Furthermore, I disagree (as do many) that eating a lot of fat in general is fine. It's easily stored in the body, and by cutting carbs drastically, you can lower your total energy levels, which is simply not good no matter what.

Again, the idea should be to be healthy - not lose weight. Cutting out carbs in general is not healthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose I should have been more clear. I have not cut carbs. I have cut processed carbs. I consume about 140g of carb a day...that's a lot. It's all vegetables/fruit, on average a banana/apple a day, and 2 lbs. of carrots/broccoli/other random veggies. Since giving up processed carbs. I find that I have more energy and I'm more clear-headed (less of that food coma fog after meals).

[/ QUOTE ]

i just started skimming this thread. you say you don't eat processed carbs? whad to you think that healthy choice pizza is? I have not even looked at the label, but I can bet you it is nothing but simple white death flour, and alot of it.

low reps for size, and high reps for tone is myth that has been debunked by many exercise scientist. alot is unknown, but please be careful with such statements.

also, you lost a ton of weight using prescription drugs, all diet advise from you should be taken with a grain of salt.

[kyleb]

Uh, that's not me. I eat processed carbs.

Also, I have made pretty well-known statements in this thread by most.

As for losing weight with prescription drugs, yeah, I did. So what? I can tell you first-hand whether or not it's a good idea. Saying that what I have to say should be taken with a grain of salt is a backhand to my intelligence and wisdom on the subject only backed up by the fact that I've used prescription drugs to lose weight and ignoring the fact that I know a ton about athletic fitness and dietary needs.

[Thremp]

Veg protein have incomplete amino acid profiles and low bioavailability.

[kidcolin]

What was your motivation to take the drugs?

[pokerraja]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, that's not me. I eat processed carbs.

Also, I have made pretty well-known statements in this thread by most.

As for losing weight with prescription drugs, yeah, I did. So what? I can tell you first-hand whether or not it's a good idea. Saying that what I have to say should be taken with a grain of salt is a backhand to my intelligence and wisdom on the subject only backed up by the fact that I've used prescription drugs to lose weight and ignoring the fact that I know a ton about athletic fitness and dietary needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't want to insult your intelligence. It's just that your whole diet regimen was aided by drugs. So therefore you are very much qualified to tell people how to lose weight with the assistance of drugs. But, I would be hesitant to take your advice on how to lose weight drug free.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
It's just that your whole diet regimen was aided by drugs.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was. It's not now.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
What was your motivation to take the drugs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Better living through chemistry, I guess.

Supplements still help a lot, and if pokerraja is calling ZMA, CLA, and protein powder "drugs," then he's got a lot to learn about health and fitness in general.

[pokerraja]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What was your motivation to take the drugs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Better living through chemistry, I guess.

Supplements still help a lot, and if pokerraja is calling ZMA, CLA, and protein powder "drugs," then he's got a lot to learn about health and fitness in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, I never called them drugs, im talking solely about the phentermine, don't be stupid. Also I know as much about health and fitness that I care to know considering I have a bachelors degree in exercise physiology and a masters in physical therapy.

[El Diablo]

kyle,

Had you failed at previous attempts to lose weight without the use of drugs or had you not tried? I think it's pretty easy to lose weight without drugs, just takes a little discipline. Some decent suggestions in this weight loss thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6779767&page=0&fpart=all &vc=1)

[kyleb]

diablo,

I had tried in the past without much luck. However, these attempts were half-hearted at best. While Phentermine helped me, I definitely would have lost the weight without the drugs anyway. What really put me in the mindset of losing weight was getting personal training from the 24-Hour Fitness to better understand the idea of core strength and keeping a food/exercise journal of sorts to be accountable to myself (which rang true in my mind).

[anklebreaker]

yellowdoyle, soy is phytoestrogenic and like kyleb said, will depress testosterone and raise estrogen if consumed in large amounts. It's certainly not optimal for men.

Note what thremp said about veg proteins. Also, you're correct about being able to get 50g of protein with veg. protein. But that's not a lot at all. Remember, that's around 200 calories from protein.

[pokerraja]

[ QUOTE ]
diablo,

, I definitely would have lost the weight without the drugs anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know this. The speed, err I mean Phentermine made your appetite non-existant. I'm not here to rip on you, but give credit where credit is due, Phentermine made you lose weight. I hope you can successfully keep the weight off through healthy eating and living, and not go back on the Phentermine again. GL.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
diablo,

, I definitely would have lost the weight without the drugs anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know this. The speed, err I mean Phentermine made your appetite non-existant. I'm not here to rip on you, but give credit where credit is due, Phentermine made you lose weight. I hope you can successfully keep the weight off through healthy eating and living, and not go back on the Phentermine again. GL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's easy for me to keep weight off now and I kept a good, regular diet then.

I wish you wouldn't derail the thread with what I did in the past as if it's some reason to hate me.

[lippy]

How obese are most people that use phentermine... or do people 30-50 lbs overweight use it to slim down? Seems extreme to me.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
How obese are most people that use phentermine... or do people 30-50 lbs overweight use it to slim down? Seems extreme to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the people on the forums are morbidly obese, though it's common for a lot of people to use it even if they are slightly overweight. FWIW, 30-50 lbs overweight is quite overweight.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
I also think you mentioned it, but I don't have it qouted above, that veg/vegan diets do not take in enough protein. This I definitely disagree with, and am not sure why you would say that. You really think a conscious veg/vegan could not take in ~50g of protein per day? I myself think that number is a bit high, but I can definitely achieve it without meat or dairy. (This does involve beans and other things not advocated by Paleo methods).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as a reference, I probably consume 105-130g of protein a day. This number will go up when my body warrants it. Right now I am about 5'9" and 170 lbs. In the next 2 years I would like to lose about 10 lbs of fat and gain about 10-15 lbs of muscle. You can see how little 50g of protein is per day.

In regards to the meat, though I eat most of my meat rare, I still cook it. The paleo diet is more of a live hunter/gatherer style, not extreme. I'm sure there are some people out there who take it to the extreme. I am eating paleo-like...not 100%. I was also zoning for a little bit as a lot of crossfitters (www.crossfit.com - I started drinking the kool aid) follow a zone diet with paleo foods... There is a ton of interesting information out there. Some people eat 4-6 small meals a day, others do Intermittent fasting which I'd like to try once I have a better grasp on what's working and what isn't. For now, this method of eating is working for me. If I start to plateau or not feel well I will change my eating habits. It's really about finding what's right for your body, that being said, processed food is never right.

Would you consider eating cage free/organic/free range meats?

[yellowdoyle]

[ QUOTE ]
Veg protein have incomplete amino acid profiles and low bioavailability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi thremp,

A vegetarian or vegan can obtain ALL essential amino acids without any meat (or dairy/animal) products. Does it take some discipline/awareness? Yes. Just like a diet dedicated to putting on muscle or losing weight etc. /images/graemlins/cool.gif But it seems to me you are stating the stereotypical problems associated with veg/veganism, while they are in many cases myths just like "high reps for tone" pointed out above.

AZK,

I consume about 50g per day by choice. I could definitely increase that, but at this point in time I am choosing a 40-50g range.

I would definitely consider eating free range or other "ethical" types of meat. In fact if I were to have a farm of my own I would almost certainly eat some type of meat. As it is right now, I have no real desire to eat meat and believe I can meet my bodies needs without it.

Anklebreaker,

When you say in large amounts, what amounts (g/day I assume?) are you referring to? I also eat a lower ratio of my calories from protein, I realize I am taking in many less that other posters in here. I am fine with 200ish calories/day from protein.

Regarding my workouts: at this point in time I am doing almost all cardio. I really need to start adding in weight training of some sort, that is where I will have many many questions. Primarily I am playing lots of tennis, shorthanded basketball, and mountain/road biking. I am trying to get my heart rate up and work my muscles in ways that I will use and enjoy.

That said, to start some type of muscle exercising, do any of you guys just use your own body weight to start out? Or simple free weights? At this point in time I want to keep it simple.....I guess that means squats eh? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Thremp]

yellowdoyle,

I'd prop bet you my life that you will never be able to replicate the amino acid profile or bioavailability of my diet with your "vegan" lifestyle. Stop citing "myths" as a reason for your inferior diet.

You don't get enough BCAAs or other essential amino acids. You have to take a great deal of effort to just get a complete amino acid profile each day with a mixed diet. Don't attempt some "muddying the waters" crap. Just face the facts. Vegetarianism sucks.

[anklebreaker]

yd,

Assume daily calorific intake is 2000. Going by the (conservative) 40% protein ratio, you'd want 800 cals from protein. And you think 50g is a "bit high."

As for soy, I don't know how much is high, but it's not something I want to experiment with.

[theBruiser500]

i have a random question about squats. let's say i did one warm up set. then i put some 25 pounds and do as many squats as i can, which was somewhere between 25-40. should i do a couple more sets of as many squats as i can, or does it make sense to go to heavy weights for like 8-10 reps and then switch back to 30 reps and then back to heavy weights and 8 reps?

[kyleb]

That sounds like a lot of squats. I typically do a 5x5 routine - meaning 5 sets of 5 reps of squat/deadlift/clean at 80-90% of 1RM.

[theBruiser500]

80-90% of 1 RM, what does that mean? Someone told me in another thread that they do different things, like 5 reps builds bigger muscles, but doing 25 reps will make my legs stronger for sprints (for like frisbee or soccer).

[Thremp]

Bruiser,

They lied to you. Please don't injure yourself either.

[kyleb]

1RM = One Rep. Maximum.

As for what your friends told you, they lied.

[Narcileptico]

[ QUOTE ]
i have a random question about squats. let's say i did one warm up set. then i put some 25 pounds and do as many squats as i can, which was somewhere between 25-40. should i do a couple more sets of as many squats as i can, or does it make sense to go to heavy weights for like 8-10 reps and then switch back to 30 reps and then back to heavy weights and 8 reps?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope this was supposed to be a joke.

[anklebreaker]

40 reps of anything should set off alarm bells.

[spyderracing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Veg protein have incomplete amino acid profiles and low bioavailability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi thremp,

A vegetarian or vegan can obtain ALL essential amino acids without any meat (or dairy/animal) products.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're confusing essential amino acids with a complete profile. Getting a gram of BCAA's a day certainly isn't essential, but it definately helps. Combined with an insulin spike post workout (read simple sugars in your protein shake) puts your body in a state that is about 200-400% more anabolic than the body at rest.

[Peter Harris]

I think i should look better than i do - i think my weight is fine for my height (5'4", 133lbs) but i definitely need definition.

However, I am not currently one of those people who wants the hassle of watching my diet or subscribing to a gym. So, assuming the options i have are a) yoga b) sit ups, press ups, c) tennis (there's a court in my village) and d) swimming, what do people think the best way for me to look more toned in 3 months is? hours/day or days/week.

Or should i stick with not really giving a damn? Actually, this post is asking for a lot and not offering anything in return. So whatever, if someone has an idea for fine-sized-but-could-look-more-cut-but-is-apathetic people fire it out there.

[Jay.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

• Lift heavy weights for mass, light weights more often for tone. Lifting heavy weights is the best way to maximize your workout in the gym, get your heart rate going, and help your body burn fat. Lifting heavy weights will increase your overall body tone, power, and strength, while multiple reps of lighter weight will only serve to increase endurance. This is not really what you want if you want to lose weight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth (given that I opened this thread, you didn't force me to read it), but why should we believe you about that? Where is your source? I subscribe to two women's fitness magazines and they pretty much stick to low weight, high reps for tone. they do agree that weight training is helful to supplement cardio, FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are just telling women what they want to hear to get continued business.

[Thremp]

Peter Harris,

There really is no hope. Sorry but reality is reality. You essentially asked: "I like playing poker, but I'm to lazy to become a student of it. And calling is better than folding anyway. Should I limp QTo in EP or should I raise with it?"

[1C5]

don't worry, 98% of the population shares your attitude and that is why you see all the ab machines and diet pills on the tv ads all the time.

[kerowo]

Peter,

If you can work up to an hour a day of swimming 4 days a week you will be more toned in 3 months. Of the choices you listed, that is going to do the most good, but really, it's such a hassle just switch to diet soda and you'll do great.

[skunkworks]

I'll go ahead and out myself as Bruiser's "friend" that told him 5-rep sets are better for building muscle and 20-rep sets are better for lactic acid tolerance, endurance, and cardio training. I was trying to explain the difference between squatting heavy with low reps and squatting lighter with high reps, and why you would want to go with a certain rep range depending on what your goals are. I wouldn't recommend that he do 20-rep sets often, but it would be good to throw that in there every now and then.

I also think it's very possible that Bruiser misinterpreted what I said. Or that I said some goofy [censored]. I was kind of drunk when I talked to him.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I am not currently one of those people who wants the hassle of watching my diet or subscribing to a gym.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, come on. Are you joking?

[kyleb]

http://www.thatexcellent.com/jimlook.gif
http://www.thatexcellent.com/jimlook.gifhttp://www.thatexcellent.com/jimlook.gifhttp://www.thatexcellent.com/jimlook.gifhttp://www.thatexcellent.com/jimlook.gifhttp://www.thatexcellent.com/jimlook.gif


eregeregegehfgehhgehgehgejhg

[Peter Harris]

kerowo, 1C5, kyleb,

I am brokeass poor from uni and can't afford the membership fees of gyms in this area, so that's out. And as for watching my diet, I do make most of my stuff fresh (we get an organic veg delivery once a week and my dry cupboard is full of brown rice/wholemeal bread).

I will never get suckered into diet pills, and i don't want an "Ash Ketchum" patented 6-pack (lol), so I was really just asking if a little bit of swimming and yoga will do.

Call me the "other side" to this thread; those who look fine, could look better but wonder if it's worth the effort. It's a cross between a joke and playing devil's advocate /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Packard]

Here is the key to all your working out and eating needs. Go to a site called t-nation and read free articles by Chris Shugart and John Berardi for eating advice and Charles Poliquin for training advice

[theBruiser500]

i don't understand guys why is it bad to do so many reps? for instance in kung fu we do a lot of squats sin weights, but if legs are stronger it's equivelent to add on some small weights and do a lot of reps still. it was hard felt like it was helping to stronger

[J.A.K.]

All,

How does the recumbent bike stack up for cardio? I am a right BK amputee and I have developed some arthritis in my "good" knee. The ellipticals are cumbersome due to their range of motion and my lacking a right ankle. And the stairmasters have too much impact.

I am looking for a good LOW-IMPACT cardio in addition to diet and workout. The recumbent is the most comfortable for me but it seems to take 2-3x the effort to burn the same calories as other equipment. How about the rowing machines? Would those be a better workout? Or am I stuck to longer times on bike/treadmill?

I would swim, but our local gyms (including the YMCA) do not have pools.

[Thremp]

Packard,

Some of Poliquin's stuff is dated and a little haggard. There is some pretty horrible advice on the site (One Day Arm Cure?). But the vast majority is gold. Waterbury's stuff is much better for beginners.

Bruiser,

Just listen to an expert. Possibly find a website full of them. I wonder if those exist.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll go ahead and out myself as Bruiser's "friend" that told him 5-rep sets are better for building muscle and 20-rep sets are better for lactic acid tolerance, endurance, and cardio training. I was trying to explain the difference between squatting heavy with low reps and squatting lighter with high reps, and why you would want to go with a certain rep range depending on what your goals are. I wouldn't recommend that he do 20-rep sets often, but it would be good to throw that in there every now and then.

I also think it's very possible that Bruiser misinterpreted what I said. Or that I said some goofy [censored]. I was kind of drunk when I talked to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

What danny should be doing is tabata squats. As many squats (no weight) as possible in 20 seconds followed by 10 seconds of rest. Repeat for 8 rounds. Tabata score is fewest number of squats in any round, so the aim is to have consistent power output in each round. A score over 15 is good, anything close to 20 is fantastic.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
kerowo, 1C5, kyleb,

I am brokeass poor from uni and can't afford the membership fees of gyms in this area, so that's out. And as for watching my diet, I do make most of my stuff fresh (we get an organic veg delivery once a week and my dry cupboard is full of brown rice/wholemeal bread).


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need a gym to get ripped, but it certainly helps. Swimming is definitely good, you can also start doing push ups, pull ups, hand stand push ups, squats, sit ups/crunches, etc.

Buy a kettlebell and all of a sudden the # of resistance exercsises you can do jumps...it just takes a little creativity, a lot of effort, hardwork, and dedication.

People should stop using the "I can't pay for the gym" or "I don't have time to drive to the gym" as an excuse.

[Thremp]

AZK,

C'mon. You know thats a incorrect answer. Being "ripped" is 90% about diet. If you don't watch what you eat, you'll never be ripped regardless of what side of the workout scale you fall on.

[AZK]

my b. i meant ripped like muscular/huge, which is different but for some reason in my mind ripped = huge. Even though ripped really does mean 5'9" 120 lbs see every vein/muscle...

edit: my point was just that you can be physically fit, have strength, metabolic endurance, etc, and not belong to a gym.

[Wires]

How do you guys track your lifting routines and diet? Online site, software, or good old pencil and paper?

I would imagine the response would be some sort of website or software. Google turns up a ton of services - is there one or two that are considered the standard?

I'd like something where I could plan and track my routine as well as be able to print out my routine for that day and bring it to the gym with me.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you guys track your lifting routines and diet? Online site, software, or good old pencil and paper?

I would imagine the response would be some sort of website or software. Google turns up a ton of services - is there one or two that are considered the standard?

I'd like something where I could plan and track my routine as well as be able to print out my routine for that day and bring it to the gym with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I use a standard small notebook and pen. I can't lift without it. A friend of mine at the gym asked me one day how much I could bench. I said "I dunno - hold on" and took out my training log to check.

I really can't imagine anybody being serious about weightlifting and not keeping a log. There's really no other way to track where you've been and know where you're going.

[kyleb]

I just use a binder plus those sheets in my OP.

[aheravi]

Have scanned the entire thread...and get the feeling that a lot of this is directed toward the 20's crowd.

Need advice/pointers to get started again. 36, 5'4", 185, physical activity has dropped off over the past 5 years. Not obese, but probably carrying 30 lbs that I don't need. Body makeup is more toward a stocky side. Still powerful in the legs, soft in the middle, broad chest and shoulders. Obviously, not built to run.

Getting back into the gym starting in March. Challenges:

1. What I'd like to do is avoid that first week of extreme soreness.

2. Recommendations on "other" cardio besides running? Not my forte, and no matter how hard I try, after 3 miles I'm bored.

3. The spare tire: even at my best, was always a bit thick around the middle. Pointers?

Appreciate any help. Once I get in some shape it's time to work on the wife (If anyone can recommend a program for a early 30's wife, would love to hear. She's big on those women's magazine programs that never do any good).

Edit: PM's are welcome

[kyleb]

1) Take it easy in the gym. Don't go all-out like most guys do when they've taken a lot of time off.
2) Elliptical isn't bad for weight loss, but not really good for cardio strength unless you're really killing yourself on it. Do wind sprints if you're doing elliptical as well.
3) The stomach is the last part to go on men. /images/graemlins/frown.gif Gotta lose fat everywhere.

[kerowo]

aheravi,

I'm 39, 6'0 and have always been heavy and a computer geek, no activity. Last summer at some point I topped 270 and realized I had to do something. I changed my eating habbits some and dropped to around 260. In October or November I started doing Dance Dance Revolution just to be doing something. At the end of December I bought a heart rate monitor and started riding my road bike on an indoor trainer and started tracking my progress. I'm averaging 3-5 hours a week on the trainer/DDR, about 2-3k calories according to the Polar. Tomorrow I should be around 145. At the moment I'm only interested in cardio and would suggest cycling instead of running, the downside to cycling is that it isn't weight bearing which is why I'm doing the DDR. I'm not interested in weight training just yet, maybe when I get down closer to 200. The biggest difference I see is in changing my eating habbits to less portions and less fat.

[kyleb]

DDR is nice. I play some myself as a replacement for plyometrics once in awhile.

My brother is the world champion believe it or not.

[skunkworks]

[ QUOTE ]
DDR is nice. I play some myself as a replacement for plyometrics once in awhile.

My brother is the world champion believe it or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
For proof, here is Kyle working out to his favorite song (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6010054737924689495&q=cake+ddr).

[aheravi]

Yeah, "take it easy"...easier said than done. I'm like most dudes where we're glad to be back in the gym, feels good to throw the weight around...then for 4 days I can't straighten my arms. I'll try to remember to pace myself.

When I was doing cardio, would run for 30 minutes (at my height/weight, 10:00 pace was doable and still could hold intermittent conversation), then finish with 15 minutes on the old stairclimbers (with the rotating steps).

I'll have to take a look at DDR. Not familiar.

[MatthewRyan]

Great thread so far. I tried searching for a site that has been linked here before, something about a Skinny Guy Workout program. If anyone can link that Id appreciate.

[kerowo]

Basically, DDR is a game for most of the gaming consoles out there that uses a pad on the floor with 4 direction arrows. The object of the game is to step on the appropriate arrow during a minute and a half clip of some dance track. If you aren't a fan of various types of dance music it may not be as much fun. When I first started it was very easy to keep my heart rate between 60 and 75% almost from the get go. Now it takes longer to get there and I drop out of that zone faster between songs, which is a nice indicator that my recovery time is coming down. It is probably on par with jumping rope.

[skunkworks]

MatthewRyan,

Was it Westside for Skinny Bastards (http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside.htm)?

[King_S]

Go to

www.t-nation.com (http://www.t-nation.com) for fitness advice.

Testosterone Nation!

[Thremp]

kerowo,

A lot of people don't realize that some things that are "great" for cardio has a very significant skill aspect to them. Jumping rope is one of them. It loses it effectiveness as time goes on unless you just lack any sort of coordination.

[kyleb]

Thremp is right. The better you get at something, the less effect it will have on your body.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
kerowo,

A lot of people don't realize that some things that are "great" for cardio has a very significant skill aspect to them. Jumping rope is one of them. It loses it effectiveness as time goes on unless you just lack any sort of coordination.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't increase the skill level that is right. But if you continue to learn harder and harder skills with something like jump rope you won't lose the benifits. Doing 500 single two foot unders is pointless, but learning to do 100 double under crossovers will take most people months - trust me it doesn't stop being tiring.

[fluffpop62]

dear everyone who told me to start doing squats & lunges,
thank you so much! i have noticed a difference already (at least soreness-wise). i am going to tell all my friends!

[Mitch Evans]

[ QUOTE ]
yellowdoyle,

As a veg and even more as a vegan your diet will always suck and be sub par. Not as bad as a fast food aficionado, but it'll still suck it hard. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you care to elaborate? Just saying it "will always suck and be sub par" isn't too convincing.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
dear everyone who told me to start doing squats & lunges,
thank you so much! i have noticed a difference already (at least soreness-wise). i am going to tell all my friends!

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to hear!

[TBag]

When you guys say you eat fish, is there a certain type of fish that you recommend? How healthy is salmon?

I frickin <3 salmon to death, but I can't imagine the truckload of salmon fat in a salmon steak is healthy.

[kyleb]

Salmon is really good for you. It has a lot of Omega-3 fatty acids and other healthy fish oils. There's a guy who runs team marathons by himself (was featured in Wired) and he eats salmon every single day along with a ton of vegetables.

[ManChild]

I've stopped drinking anything with sugar in it - (as i was taking in a ton of sugar fr om drinking soda, green tea, and other things) and i have been drinking diet soda, diet tea, nothing with sugar in it which has greatly reduced my daily sugar intake but it doesnt seem to be helping. is there something in sweetened diet drinks that hinders weight loss? should i just drink water/seltzer more often?

also - does having a messed up sleep schedule cause you to have more trouble losing weight?

[kyleb]

Simply dropping calories could cause your metabolism to drop, thinking that you are starving it. To combat this, you should be eating multiple small meals throughout the day and perhaps taking a thermogenic.

Not sleeping enough can hinder weight loss / LBM buildup.

[ManChild]

[ QUOTE ]
Simply dropping calories could cause your metabolism to drop, thinking that you are starving it. To combat this, you should be eating multiple small meals throughout the day and perhaps taking a thermogenic.

Not sleeping enough can hinder weight loss / LBM buildup.

[/ QUOTE ]

whats a thermogenic /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kyleb]

The OP goes over it - something that jacks your heart rate up and metabolism. Ephedra is a commonly known one.

[ManChild]

[ QUOTE ]
The OP goes over it - something that jacks your heart rate up and metabolism. Ephedra is a commonly known one.

[/ QUOTE ]

something like stacker 2?
is it unhealthy to "jack up your heartrate"

[kyleb]

Something like that, yeah. It's not unhealthy if you are monitoring it.

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
kerowo,

A lot of people don't realize that some things that are "great" for cardio has a very significant skill aspect to them. Jumping rope is one of them. It loses it effectiveness as time goes on unless you just lack any sort of coordination.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was trying to think of what DDR mostly reminded me of in terms of known excercices and jumping rope is what I came up with.

[lippy]

kyleb;

If I am getting my heart rate up to my target (80% of max) on the elliptical is it good enough of cardio?

I can only jog like 2 miles but can go for 40 min at around my target heart rate on the elliptical, so I'm guessing this is better?

Once in better shape, should I try to switch off the elliptical for more fat burn?

[Mitch Evans]

[ QUOTE ]
Something like that, yeah. It's not unhealthy if you are monitoring it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of like those bad foods you mention, right?

[kyleb]

lippy,

Yeah, that's better, assuming you are going for weight loss anyway. I recommend changing up your cardio as much as possible - integrate swimming, running, jump rope, etc.

[MatthewRyan]

[ QUOTE ]
MatthewRyan,

Was it Westside for Skinny Bastards (http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside.htm)?

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome, thanks skunk

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yellowdoyle,

As a veg and even more as a vegan your diet will always suck and be sub par. Not as bad as a fast food aficionado, but it'll still suck it hard. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you care to elaborate? Just saying it "will always suck and be sub par" isn't too convincing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you miss the protein part or just ignore it?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
kerowo,

A lot of people don't realize that some things that are "great" for cardio has a very significant skill aspect to them. Jumping rope is one of them. It loses it effectiveness as time goes on unless you just lack any sort of coordination.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah. Just breathe or jump faster. If jumping rope is tiring only because you're uncoordinated, you're not jumping fast enough or breathing fast enough. You can turn jumping rope into a sprint at any moment just by changing your breathing. You can also do it only on one leg, do it faster, etc.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
When you guys say you eat fish, is there a certain type of fish that you recommend? How healthy is salmon?

I frickin <3 salmon to death, but I can't imagine the truckload of salmon fat in a salmon steak is healthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The salmon fat is actually great for you. It's the accumulation of heavy metals, especially mercury, that's bad. Farm-raised salmon supposedly have a much higher level than those caught in the wild, and it's cheaper too, but there are your trade-offs. I love salmon too, and suggest you pay up for the more expensive wild-caught version so you can eat it more. It's an outstanding food.

[Thremp]

Blarg,


Like Smiley, I think you miss the entire point of what I'm trying to say.

[TBag]

Ah, thanks for the info on the salmon. I think I'm gonna make some tonight =P.

Also, if my goal is to lose as much body fat as possible? What would be the best way of accomplishing that? I've been eating <2000 cal a day and as little fat as possible (no cheese, super frowny face), but from what I read from Kyle's post about metabolism, this is suboptimal?

[Thremp]

TBag,

Zone diet, 40/30/30. And weightlifting with a HIIT on off days would be hawt.

[TBag]

I just googled the zone diet and that looks pretty hard haha. Do you have experience putting that to work?

Also I play badminton for ~2 hours 3 times a week and I think that's a good amount of exercise, although I may take up some weightlifting on off days. I figure badminton works my cardio really well as well as my leg/core muscles (a lot of quick sprints and jumps).

[hotbacon]

random question:
is is true that it's not smart to do deadlifts more than once a week? i'd really like to do deadlifts twice a week, but i don't want to overtrain. could i just eat my way out of overtraining?
also, would it be bad to do two big mass building lifts in one day, like deadlifts and squats on the same day?

[Thremp]

hotbacon,

1)It depends. I know that answer sucks. You can do probably 4 deadlift workouts a week if you're doing 3 feeder workouts. This is way more advanced than you need to be getting though. So I'll short answer this as a no.
2) You can't really eat your way out of overtraining, but you can sleep your way out of it.
3) Probably. Since they work similar muscles depending on stance etc. I do full body workouts, adjusting for "feel". Since sometimes I develop nagging injuries or other little things that'll modify what I really want to do. Usually its a leg exercise, upper body push/pull and maybe some ancillary work if I feel brave.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
I just googled the zone diet and that looks pretty hard haha. Do you have experience putting that to work?

Also I play badminton for ~2 hours 3 times a week and I think that's a good amount of exercise, although I may take up some weightlifting on off days. I figure badminton works my cardio really well as well as my leg/core muscles (a lot of quick sprints and jumps).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's confusing at first but easy...after a while it becomes 2nd nature, I did it for a bit but got tired of weighing my food...so now i loosely follow zone, i end up getting more protein and fat and less carbs, but so far it hasn't affected my training...using zone and hiit like thremp said will literally melt lbs off your frame. when i was doing zone i lost something like 15 lbs in 2 weeks with no gym activity whatsoever. most of that might have been cutting out the grains though. 1 block = 9g carb, 7g protein, 3g fat.... i was eating between 14-16 blocks a day... i probably do now without thinking much about it... the great thing about zone was that it made me realize how much we overeat and how gross the amount of food we stuff into our mouth is... so even now while i don't follow zone to a T, i still eat less than i used to...

[TBag]

Well, the problem with melting pounds off is I'm 5'9" 155lbs, so losing weight isn't my goal, all I want to do is lower my body fat %. Is there a solid web resource on this? It seems the official site requires membership? wtf?

[kyleb]

TBag,

The Zone Diet is pretty good. I loosely follow the idea of the Zone Diet (I intake monounsaturated fats) myself when I'm cutting calories, and I think it's a good idea.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the problem with melting pounds off is I'm 5'9" 155lbs, so losing weight isn't my goal, all I want to do is lower my body fat %. Is there a solid web resource on this? It seems the official site requires membership? wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

You do understand the dichotomy of what you're saying?

[TBag]

Based on your response I'm guessing there's no way to maintain body mass while losing fat? Sorry I'm kinda a fitness idiot when it comes to these things.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on your response I'm guessing there's no way to maintain body mass while losing fat? Sorry I'm kinda a fitness idiot when it comes to these things.

[/ QUOTE ]

No there is. Its just much harder. And usually involves supplementation. Your body doesn't wanna lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on your response I'm guessing there's no way to maintain body mass while losing fat? Sorry I'm kinda a fitness idiot when it comes to these things.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're completely sedentary you are probably skinny-fat. If you all of a sudden start eating healthfuly in line with your caloric needs and begin weight and metabolic training, you will slowly gain lean body mass and lose fat. It is more effecient to do one and then the other as thremp has said. However, if you are a total noob as you say then don't worry about any of that, just start eating healthy (count calories if you need to), lift weights, play an intense sport and get back to us in a year. Who cares if you lose 1 pound of fat a month instead of every week? In a year you're going to be carrying around 10lbs less fat and a hell of a lot more muscule in addition to being fit. Once you get to that base level of strength/fitness I guess you can start messing around with cycling bulking/cutting if you want to.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,


Like Smiley, I think you miss the entire point of what I'm trying to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to say?

[Mitch Evans]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yellowdoyle,

As a veg and even more as a vegan your diet will always suck and be sub par. Not as bad as a fast food aficionado, but it'll still suck it hard. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you care to elaborate? Just saying it "will always suck and be sub par" isn't too convincing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you miss the protein part or just ignore it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I made several posts about vegans meeting their protein requirements in a thread about 6 months ago. I laid out the scientific facts why it is easy to do so, but I was only met with "Yeah, but meat is just a better protein. It just is." without any data to back it up... similar to what you are doing here.

Since I don't want to hijack this thread, you can search for that thread (I think it was called single and vegan, or something like that) and refute what I say in that thread. I can find it for you if you can't.

One question for you here though... if all essential amino acids are met with a vegan diet and those same amino acids are met with a traditional diet, how does the body tell the difference between which amino acids came from meat and which did not, and why would it make any difference?

[SuitedSixes]

I'm starting the "Body-for-Life (http://www.bodyforlife.com/index.asp)" 12 week challenge today. I weigh 245 (alot less than I would have guessed). Because I am lazy and hate cooking I'm going to mostly be eating the "South Beach Diet" frozen dinners, lunch wraps, bars, etc. They seem to fall pretty much in line with the BFL nutrition guidelines.

My problems with stuff like this has always been that it becomes an obsession rather than a habit. For example, 4 years ago I did Atkins, lifted weight, and used the elliptical machine for an hour at a time. My "obsession" was the elliptical and I resolved to never go a shorter distance than I had the day before, once I finally broke that streak I was 50 pounds lighter but had lost my reason for working out.

I also am addicted to Dr. Pepper, and went six months without one but had one when I really wasn't even craving one and probably haven't gone two days without at least two cans since.

At some point, I'm going to add supplements to maximize the weight training (creatine, etc).

That is all.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,


Like Smiley, I think you miss the entire point of what I'm trying to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to say?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Your increase in ability to jump rope does not correlate well with an increase in VO2 max or other measures of cardio.
2) Most people will not increase the difficulty of their jumping rope and will further be led to #1.
3) At some point the increasing technical skill you need to add to have it as an acceptable aerobic workout will lead to less functional crossover to whatever athletic endeavor you are pursuing... Unless its a Jump rope for heart team, but then you're in SPP instead of GPP.

Note: You and Blarg were missing what I was saying for different reasons. I won't bother adjusting for "hyperventilating to increase effectiveness" or some stuff like that. I wrote the above response geared toward you.

Note 2: I'm not disagreeing with what you said, but just feel its not very productive for the general athlete.

[thirddan]

kind of random, but have any of you heard or know about the weight loss benefits of having vinegar before/during meals? deals with reducing insulin production...

i googled it and found a bunch of sites saying it could help and some saying its [censored]...any input?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
random question:
is is true that it's not smart to do deadlifts more than once a week? i'd really like to do deadlifts twice a week, but i don't want to overtrain. could i just eat my way out of overtraining?
also, would it be bad to do two big mass building lifts in one day, like deadlifts and squats on the same day?

[/ QUOTE ]

On deadlifts, when you're beginning, you shouldn't be doing them too heavy anyway, but concentrating on form. So you should be able to get a couple or a few in, unless you strain your core muscles too much from other exercises, like squats or something.

Once you feel good about your form, you can actually deadlift quite a few times a week. But beware again that you don't do them after ab and general core work-outs or something that fatigues those areas. You really don't want any muscles to suddenly give out on you. Btw, deadlifts themselves are extremely good core work-outs all on their own.

The deadlift is an exercise that really rewards good form a lot, by giving you tremendous results very quickly that have a big carryover effect to other exercises, like overhead presses and the like. But it's also one that can punish you pretty quickly with an injury or overtraining. So do a fair share of reading about it and perhaps watching some videos or getting coaching from someone knowledgeable in the gym. That's probably going to be some superstrong brute, and not a thin-waisted metrosexual, btw. Those latter will probably just discourage you from doing it and then provide little help on making sure your form is correct.

[Blarg]

I think you're overlooking just how convenient a jumprope is. You need very little room and can do it indoors without any special dress or other equipment, it weighs and costs very close to nothing, and is portable. While there may be other things that you can do to get a better aerobic work-out once you are decent at jumping rope, virtually none of them is anywhere near as convenient. That's more than reason enough to consider jumping rope and its different variations no matter what level of shape you're in.

Personally, I like it a lot as a sort of active recovery in a circuit. It's especially good between bouts of bag work or shadowboxing, to let my upper body rest while still keeping my body going. Even just 15 or 20 minutes of that can be a great work-out.

Add in jumping on one leg and it gets a lot harder while still letting your upper body rest. Or add in hyperventilating and you get to the limits of your aerobic endurance in a boxing work-out in a time frame that can be more in tune with your upper body's muscular exhaustion. You can just get a lot more stress on your body in a much shorter period of time.

[hotbacon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
random question:
is is true that it's not smart to do deadlifts more than once a week? i'd really like to do deadlifts twice a week, but i don't want to overtrain. could i just eat my way out of overtraining?
also, would it be bad to do two big mass building lifts in one day, like deadlifts and squats on the same day?

[/ QUOTE ]

On deadlifts, when you're beginning, you shouldn't be doing them too heavy anyway, but concentrating on form. So you should be able to get a couple or a few in, unless you strain your core muscles too much from other exercises, like squats or something.

Once you feel good about your form, you can actually deadlift quite a few times a week. But beware again that you don't do them after ab and general core work-outs or something that fatigues those areas. You really don't want any muscles to suddenly give out on you. Btw, deadlifts themselves are extremely good core work-outs all on their own.

The deadlift is an exercise that really rewards good form a lot, by giving you tremendous results very quickly that have a big carryover effect to other exercises, like overhead presses and the like. But it's also one that can punish you pretty quickly with an injury or overtraining. So do a fair share of reading about it and perhaps watching some videos or getting coaching from someone knowledgeable in the gym. That's probably going to be some superstrong brute, and not a thin-waisted metrosexual, btw. Those latter will probably just discourage you from doing it and then provide little help on making sure your form is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been doing straight-legged deadlifts for about a month now, and I definitely think it's the best lift I've ever done for my lower back.
Lately I've been trying to do regular dead lifts, but I don't quite have the form down. I don't think I bend my knees when I'm supposed to, so the bar kinda hits my lower thigh. I do have really long legs though, which may cause some problems for my deadlifts. I think I'm just gonna do the bar until I get the form down. I'll be sure to ask for some help next time too. Thanks.

[Blarg]

Actually long legs make the deadlift your exercise. People with shorter legs tend to do better in squats, longer legs do better with deadlifts, for leverage reasons.

Glad you're liking the lift. I find it affects my hormonal system like no other lift, even much more than squats. And partially because of that, I often feel fantastic after deadlifts. However, watch out, because you can be practically out on your feet the next day if you overdo it, without even being sore. Ramp up with care.

[theblackkeys]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
random question:
is is true that it's not smart to do deadlifts more than once a week? i'd really like to do deadlifts twice a week, but i don't want to overtrain. could i just eat my way out of overtraining?
also, would it be bad to do two big mass building lifts in one day, like deadlifts and squats on the same day?

[/ QUOTE ]

On deadlifts, when you're beginning, you shouldn't be doing them too heavy anyway, but concentrating on form. So you should be able to get a couple or a few in, unless you strain your core muscles too much from other exercises, like squats or something.

Once you feel good about your form, you can actually deadlift quite a few times a week. But beware again that you don't do them after ab and general core work-outs or something that fatigues those areas. You really don't want any muscles to suddenly give out on you. Btw, deadlifts themselves are extremely good core work-outs all on their own.

The deadlift is an exercise that really rewards good form a lot, by giving you tremendous results very quickly that have a big carryover effect to other exercises, like overhead presses and the like. But it's also one that can punish you pretty quickly with an injury or overtraining. So do a fair share of reading about it and perhaps watching some videos or getting coaching from someone knowledgeable in the gym. That's probably going to be some superstrong brute, and not a thin-waisted metrosexual, btw. Those latter will probably just discourage you from doing it and then provide little help on making sure your form is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
For all the newbies like me who want to start lifting weights, I suggest you check out Starting Strength (http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0976805405/sr=8-1/qid=1172542191/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-2385568-5088402?ie=UTF8&s=books), by Mark Rippetoe. It's a beginner's book that goes over proper form on the major compound exercises (bench, squat, deads, power cleans, etc), and gives you some direction so you can go in the gym knowing what you have to do. I started in January and I've been doing squats and deadlifts safely. Hurting your back is pretty easy to do with both of these exercises.

[guids]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually long legs make the deadlift your exercise. People with shorter legs tend to do better in squats, longer legs do better with deadlifts, for leverage reasons.

Glad you're liking the lift. I find it affects my hormonal system like no other lift, even much more than squats. And partially because of that, I often feel fantastic after deadlifts. However, watch out, because you can be practically out on your feet the next day if you overdo it, without even being sore. Ramp up with care.

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont think this is right blarg, squat and deadlift are both hard for people with long legs, well, harder for long leggers than people with short legs.

[Thremp]

Blarg,

I've never been one to pull punches, but your advice is generally pretty bad. Hyperventilating to increase difficulty of jumping rope? Thats pretty horrible. It has nothing to do with anything. Next to increase difficulty why don't we do jump ropes in the freezing cold in the snow?

Your deadlift advice is also pretty bad. No one should be lifting till form degrades regardless. Newbs can lift heavy once they get basic form down as well, intensity is much easier for a beginning lifter than an advanced one also. To rehash a previous statement. Your deadlift regime should have considerations for volume and intensity each week, but again that a very advanced concept. Basically you shouldn't be really deadlifting more than once a week or maybe 2x depending on circumstances. There are plenty of other exercises that need to be addressed as well.

WTF about deadlifts and overhead pressing?

hotbacon,

There is no "down" portion of a deadlift. You can just let the weight drop. Some people show random stuff in videos, buts its pointless. Here's my excessively detailed plan for conventional deads.

1) Feet slightly wider than shoulder width. Hands down in over/under grip slightly wider than shoulders.
2) Drive your weight with your heels.
3)Lower yourself so in order of tallest to lowest you find your shoulders, hips, knees.
4) You should drive from two parts of your body. Imagine doing a giant pelvic thrust and pulling your shoulders up and back.
5) Some people keep the weight on their shins... Some a couple inches off. Find what you prefer. This positioning also effects how much pulling backwards you'll be doing vs. up.

guids,

He's right. Long limbs are typically preferred for this. Most guys will sumo style also.

[Adam Dee]

Diet plans for me?

I weigh 230 lbs, back in August I was a lean 185. I would prefer to get to to the 185-198 range for powerlifting purposes. I have alot of "thick" that I can afford to lose. I've researched several different diet plans, and although Zone Diet intrigued me, 1500 calories seems kind of ridiculous. My maintenince on a non training day seems to be around 3000 calories.

Another plan that I've gathered is:
2500 calories

30% of total calorie intake should come from good fat
1 gram of fat contains 9 calories
~80 grams of good fat per day

230 grams protein(1 gram= 4 calories)

one carb=4 calories
rest of diet = carbs
215 grams of carbs

Have 3 meals per day, try and balance everything out my need for what I don't get out of 2 protein shakes(eaten in the snack periods).

Does this look good? Thoughts?


Also I would like to incorporate Hot-Rox Extreme(thermogenic) into my diet. Where/When should I take this? Should it alter my diet at all?

[guids]

A: Justin,

Deadlifts do not give you a “blocky” look. That’s a gym myth.

Your statement would be the equivalent of saying you wouldn’t play basketball because you don’t want to grow taller. My point is that basketball doesn’t make you taller; tall people gravitate towards playing basketball. The same holds true for powerlifting. The reason that a lot of powerlifters have that “blocky” look is because a lot of short-limbed, “blocky” people gravitate towards powerlifting. Because of their shorts limbs and increased leverages, they tend to participate in strength related sports.

And yes, diet does play a big role in your appearance. If you’re eating a “clean” diet and you’re not carrying a lot of bodyfat, deadlifting won’t make you look blocky. What deadlifting will do is help you pack on quality muscle mass and burn a ton of calories in the process!

Joe Defranco



I really think you guys are way off here. short guys are better suited for deadlifts, squats, and bench becasue of the fact that they have to move the weight less of a distance. you dont see many 6 1+ olympic lifters.

[Blarg]

I'm just passing along what I've read very many times, guids. It's been a while since I've read the exact reasons why the leverage tends to work that way, but it is something I've seen asserted quite a few times by professionals I have great respect for, and their explanations seemed sound. I've seen this asserted and explained in Beyond Bodybuilding, in the dragondoor forums on countless occasions, and if I recall correctly in Power to the People.

I definitely believe that the leverage in squats makes harder for long-legged people. If nothing else, I'd say deadlifts are comparatively far easier than squats for the long-legged guys.

[Thremp]

guids,

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/374/

Having short arms helps more in bench than in deads also. And usually the two limb lengths are correlated. I wouldn't be surprised if in deadlift only comps you found some freaks with ape arms and stubby legs.

Also its not a short guy, tall guy issue. It's a limb length issue.

Note: O-lifts with narrow stances also make it harder for a guy with long legs to hack it. Powerlifting with the wide stances makes it a good deal easier to make up for a long leg.

[guids]

I guess i just assumed, tall guys = longer limbs, maybe not. Im one of those semi-freaks though, i have a long upper torso, but a VERY short lower body, Im a little over 6ft, and have a 30in inseam, which is why I guess my bench isnt as hot as my dead.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
tall guys = longer limbs

[/ QUOTE ]

In an absolute sense... Yes. But not relatively. Look at the strongman. Everyone is tall, but some of those guys I'd never consider calling them long limbed.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

I've never been one to pull punches, but your advice is generally pretty bad. Hyperventilating to increase difficulty of jumping rope? Thats pretty horrible. It has nothing to do with anything. Next to increase difficulty why don't we do jump ropes in the freezing cold in the snow?

Your deadlift advice is also pretty bad. No one should be lifting till form degrades regardless. Newbs can lift heavy once they get basic form down as well, intensity is much easier for a beginning lifter than an advanced one also. To rehash a previous statement. Your deadlift regime should have considerations for volume and intensity each week, but again that a very advanced concept. Basically you shouldn't be really deadlifting more than once a week or maybe 2x depending on circumstances. There are plenty of other exercises that need to be addressed as well.

WTF about deadlifts and overhead pressing?

hotbacon,

There is no "down" portion of a deadlift. You can just let the weight drop. Some people show random stuff in videos, buts its pointless. Here's my excessively detailed plan for conventional deads.

1) Feet slightly wider than shoulder width. Hands down in over/under grip slightly wider than shoulders.
2) Drive your weight with your heels.
3)Lower yourself so in order of tallest to lowest you find your shoulders, hips, knees.
4) You should drive from two parts of your body. Imagine doing a giant pelvic thrust and pulling your shoulders up and back.
5) Some people keep the weight on their shins... Some a couple inches off. Find what you prefer. This positioning also effects how much pulling backwards you'll be doing vs. up.

guids,

He's right. Long limbs are typically preferred for this. Most guys will sumo style also.

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Thremp, it's obvious why hyperventilating leads to an increased cardiac burden. If you don't want that, fine. But there is nothing mysterious about the mechanism.

One reason I liked to do it, like I said, was to pack more work-out into a shorter period of time. I could still maintain a very high aerobic work-rate while letting my arms and shoulders uncramp after shadowboxing and hitting pads or the heavy bags. Being able to maintain a high level of aerobic strain is pretty important in boxing and fighting in general.

As to my deadlifting advice, what are you talking about? I never said anything about deadlifting till your form degrades. To the contrary -- I don't believe in forced reps or anything like that at all, and made no such recommendations.

All I said was that newbs should pay a lot of attention to form. I think the same about squats, and other exercises where form matters a lot and the risk of injury is real, especially when that potential injury involves the spine. Practicing deadlifts and squats with light weights or even an empty bar is in fact excellent. In many things, it's very helpful to deeply ingrain good habits right away rather than working in any number of random bad habits you may have a lot of trouble undoing later(whether you get injured or not).

Regarding deadlifting more, Russian and Eastern European weightlifters lift every day. Of course, volume and intensity play a part, but American exercise ideas have not been in the lead in this regard, and we have produced far fewer champions in Olympic weightlifting than we should. I agree that such things need to be begun and undertaken carefully, of course.

Re deadlifts and overhead pressing, deadlifting provides a very strong base from which to push off. By building a great deal of strength in the lower back, obliques, and stomach, proper tension and alignment are easier to maintain. In fact some people report great improvement in their overhead lifts after taking up deadlifts.

In short, you're doing some very unnecessary criticism, and also putting some words in my mouth that are the polar opposite of what I would say. I'm assuming that's just a mistake and not malicious intent.

[Thremp]

Blarg,

Why not just hold your breath and run or something equally pointless? Improper breathing patterns are unnecessary.

On the deadlift, I wasn't saying your recommended poor form deads, but that is obvious for anyone. No one should be doing reps. After 2 months (or just taking some time to practice) any beginner should be able to max their deadlift. I also disagree with your stuff about "core" training and your comments about ordering workouts but will spare that.

Your overhead press will only increase if your core strength is your limiting factor. IE you must have a had a lack of strength that was inhibiting your overhead press to cause it to increase. Most people who don't deadlift have this. But what you said "Deadlifting improves overhead press" is pretty false.

I do agree that I think you are not expressing yourself clearly or that I may not be as well, but some of the stuff you say, in the way you put it, is errant.

[Blarg]

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Blarg,

Why not just hold your breath and run or something equally pointless? Improper breathing patterns are unnecessary.


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I never said they were necessary. I just said that they could be quite useful, and gave a specific example of how, that worked out very well for me. Really, nobody has to do anything at all. It's very nice, though, that one can get in a high aerobic load doing so in the convenience of one's garage or room rather than going outside to do some sprints or find a pool to swim laps in. Convenience is HUGE and extremely desirable in fitness. Most people coulda shoulda woulda far more than DO. Being able to get in a heck of a work-out right in your home, in only 20 minutes, is a fantastic benefit, and it makes it much more likely that most people will actually stick to their fitness goals rather than coming up with excuses.


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On the deadlift, I wasn't saying your recommended poor form deads, but that is obvious for anyone. No one should be doing reps. After 2 months (or just taking some time to practice) any beginner should be able to max their deadlift.


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Well, I'm not sure what maxing your deadlift means, except that your max will likely change for a long time, and if you're a beginner, very rapidly. I'm also not sure what you mean by not doing reps, because I'm used to thinking in terms of reps and then sets and on the larger scale, cycles.

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I also disagree with your stuff about "core" training and your comments about ordering workouts but will spare that.


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That leaves me with nothing to remark upon, so we're both in the same place on that.

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Your overhead press will only increase if your core strength is your limiting factor. IE you must have a had a lack of strength that was inhibiting your overhead press to cause it to increase. Most people who don't deadlift have this. But what you said "Deadlifting improves overhead press" is pretty false.


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Well, I don't think I said it as an absolute, and definitely didn't mean it that way.



[/ QUOTE ]I do agree that I think you are not expressing yourself clearly or that I may not be as well, but some of the stuff you say, in the way you put it, is errant.

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I think I'm being pretty clear, and am actually feeling the same way about some of what you're saying, but overall we both have some good advice that shouldn't be detracted from by our disagreements. I'm sure the intelligence of OOTers will be fine for taking from our posts what's good, reading and researching a little bit more if they want to, and leaving aside whatever they think isn't right on the money. All in all, our disagreements are probably a bit overstated and far less interesting and worthwhile than are the points where we agree.

[SmileyEH]

For those wanting to learn more about the deadlift check out this article (http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf) by mark rippetoe (author of starting strength).

Also, Blarg you mentioned that many european weightlifters train everyday (sometimes twice a day) and you're right but it's not something anyone getting info from this thread should consider. I did a mini bulgarian lifting program last month and my clean and jerk numbers shot up like a rocket - but I also got tendonitis in my elbow.

The program I did (and I assume will be typical for other everyday ones) involved days of very high intensity singles and doubles of the o-lifts and squats (90%+1rm). The other days had slightly higher volume (sometimes triples) of the "power" versions of the o-lifts. In any case, when a "rest" day has 5x2 power C&J's at 80%1rm you are looking at extremely high impact training. Doing so much relative volume at high intensity was way more than my joints could handle, but it's effectiveness can't be disputed. I've read articles about bulgarian lifters maxing out in each lift at least every 2 weeks, and often doing one rep max singles just a couple days before competitions.

Also thremp I get what you are saying about increased skill leading to decreased cardio development and you're right, but at least for jump rope it is because people are lazy and don't develop higher skill levels than a problem with it in general. Furthermore, increasing your skill level in anything can be an end unto itself. Learning the footwork and agility necessary to say do alternating foot crossovers has lots of applications to other sports besides cardio conditioning. The same is true of something like Olympic lifting. As your skill improves you can lift increasingly more weight without getting "stronger." If for some reason you decided not to lift heavier and get stronger you will still enjoy the neurological development, improved spatial awareness, flexibilty and all that other good stuff.

edit: this is just a personal viewpoint but I think the "down" or negative portion of the deadlift is almost as important as the up. Keeping control of the weight while it's going down provides tons of strength benifit as does the up - it is also simply safer to be able to control the bar at all times. I think in most powerlifting competitions the weight must be in your control at all times until the weight comes back to the floor (can't let go and drop it, although the negative doesn't have to be THAT slow).

[Thremp]

Smiley,

I'm know little about jump rope, but have seen it on TV. Some may have some significant carryover, while others may be pointless. I was merely remarking on learning harder tricks just to learn them. Maybe if you could put together a breakdown of different jump rope skillz and what they do. That'd be ballin.

[SmileyEH]

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Smiley,

I'm know little about jump rope, but have seen it on TV. Some may have some significant carryover, while others may be pointless. I was merely remarking on learning harder tricks just to learn them. Maybe if you could put together a breakdown of different jump rope skillz and what they do. That'd be ballin.

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I don't know anything about competition jump rope. The skill development I'm thinking about is just agility/quickness/co-ordination/footwork. Think of boxers - they're jumping rope as opposed to running or swimming for a reason. The metabolic workout is just the beginning. In terms of the skills I learned over a few months until my rope got stolen and I became an o-lift junkie are I think as follows:

basic two foot hop: most people that didnt mess around with a jump rope in elementary school can't do this with any consistenscy. Takes a week or two to be able to comfortably make small jumps and get the rope going quickly and smoothly enough to set a metronome to your jumping (also not messing up fewer than 50-100 jumps).

one foot hop: easy enough, took me a couple weeks to learn. Very overweight people would probably find this really difficult - if your calves are at all weak you will feel them a LOT.

alternating feet: the bread and butter jump rope skill. Once I could do this consistently I hardly ever had two feet touching the ground. Overall, a much smoother and rythmic way to jump rope because it mirrors actually jogging.

crossovers: cross the rope in front of you just as it goes under your feet, uncross it as it passes behind you over your head. Brings your arms into play a lot more because you can whip them back and forth. I liked doing this alot because it kept my arms from tightening up, being in the same position all the time.

double unders: instead of aiming to jump as little as possible like all the other skills you jump as high as you can as the rope passes under you. Spin it around as fast as you can so that it can go around a 2nd time before your feet hit the ground. Being able to do thiis continually will completely reset the cardio value of jump rope (ie; it is way way way harder to do 50 double unders than 500 singles) Also because you are jumping high plyometrically it will improve your vertical.

Once you can do all those things you start mixing them together or inventing new stuff (like take a wide stance and jump side to side, front to back, spin in place, run as fast as you can while keeping the rope going etc. etc). Alternate feet while doing crossovers, do cross over double unders, try to do as many one foot double unders as possible and so on. Thats as far as I got, but the point being it stayed fun and was a constant challenge everytime as I tried to perfect the next hardest skill. There were times when going to the gym and squatting and benching just seemed boring and unappealing, but wanting to see if I could get through 20 crossover d-unders without messing up was great motivation.

[Blarg]

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Also, Blarg you mentioned that many european weightlifters train everyday (sometimes twice a day) and you're right but it's not something anyone getting info from this thread should consider. I did a mini bulgarian lifting program last month and my clean and jerk numbers shot up like a rocket - but I also got tendonitis in my elbow.


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Yeah. That's one reason why I'm a big fan of starting off slow. Probably too slow for most people's tastes. And working on form, and not doing forced reps, etc.

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The same is true of something like Olympic lifting. As your skill improves you can lift increasingly more weight without getting "stronger." If for some reason you decided not to lift heavier and get stronger you will still enjoy the neurological development, improved spatial awareness, flexibilty and all that other good stuff.


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Good point and one I agree with very much. You can get effectively much stronger without packing on additional mass -- sometimes even in a day, by finding the right groove. And that's a matter of skill, rather than raw strength. A surprising amount of strength is actually neurological, and weightlifting has more skill than it is generally credited for.

This is also one reason why something like the deadlift can carry over to something like overhead presses, as I've mentioned earlier. Training the body -- and mind that moves it -- to move along proper lines with great tension, using heavy weight in situations where balance is a key factor, like the deadlift, necessarily maximizes neuromuscular efficiency. Either that, or you're not lifting heavy enough. And that improved control of tension and of body awareness can be applied to other exercises to rapidly find the best lines of movement. Things like the deadlift are a course in weightlifting all by themselves in a way that something like a curl or a lat pull-down could never be. Once you start to get how weightlifting "works" this way, as long as your development isn't too unbalanced, you can expect some very quick poundage gains in new exercises you undertake. It's probably one of the most fun parts of weightlifting -- when it becomes apparent that weightlifting is actually practicing a skill that pays off, and not just somewhat mindlessly "working out."

[Thremp]

Smiley,

We all know why boxers don't swim, and IIRC most do a decent amount of running.

But I hear what your saying, looks good. I def might have to incorp some of this into my future GPP.

[PoppinFresh]

Why don't boxers swim?

I also have a general deadlift form question. When I'm working with lighter weights I can pull the weight in a smooth motion, but as I add weight, I find that it turns into more of a 2 part motion, the first being that I move upward using my legs until they are extended, and then I pull the weight up and back using my lower back. I have tried to do both together with heavier weight but I just can't as of now. Is this a problem or natural?

[Thremp]

PF,

Problem. Rack pullz FTW. Focus with your mind on it being a compound lift and to start moving your shoulders if you find your legs moving first.

[SmileyEH]

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Why don't boxers swim?

I also have a general deadlift form question. When I'm working with lighter weights I can pull the weight in a smooth motion, but as I add weight, I find that it turns into more of a 2 part motion, the first being that I move upward using my legs until they are extended, and then I pull the weight up and back using my lower back. I have tried to do both together with heavier weight but I just can't as of now. Is this a problem or natural?

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The angle between your hips and back must maintain the same angle until your legs are extended. What you are referring to is the most common form breakdown (of which hardly anyone is immune). Try starting the lift with your hips higher and really focus on maintaining the angle between your back and legs. If you can't it means the weight is too much.

I wouldn't go so far as to say never lift weight beyond that point, but try and keep all your work sets to good form. It's fine to really push yourself every so often to set a new max - and let form suffer a little as long as it is safe.

That means your lower back MUST maintain its arch. If at any point you begin to lose it (poor technique like we're talking about will precipitate that more easily than if your form is good) then you simply MUST drop the weight. I've hurt my back a couple times having a huge ego and trying to muscle through [censored] form and it sucks balls. Giving up on a rep and not setting that new max is a lot better than getting the lift, but being unable to do much of anything in the gym (or say put on a pair of jeans) for two weeks.

[anklebreaker]

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Why don't boxers swim?

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I think this is what thremp was refering to. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVbXMJ5K1Y8)

[Thremp]

Smiley,

I'm confused. I find myself "opening up" the entire way through. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

All,

Don't use belts FTW.

[SmileyEH]

I could have explained that better. I mean that your hips shouldn't rise faster than your shoulders.

[Thremp]

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I could have explained that better. I mean that your hips shouldn't rise faster than your shoulders.

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Abs. Aren't your shoulders suppose to rise faster though?

[SmileyEH]

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I could have explained that better. I mean that your hips shouldn't rise faster than your shoulders.

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Abs. Aren't your shoulders suppose to rise faster though?

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Ideally - probably. I could just be compensating because my dl form sucks and my back is pretty much just above parallel until my legs are extended and I straighten up. I think in general though if you have a good starting position, back stays arched, and you don't lead with your hips then pretty much any form variation after that is fine.

In this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=fQA0WY1ZLZU) you can kind of see what I'm getting at. All the lifts are with good form but still differ because of individual mechanics.

[Thremp]

Smiley,

I usually when maxing have to force out the last big of lock out. Getting my shoulders back and my hips the last little bit forward. Doing reps I never have this issue as I can get my shoulders and knees to hit the right spot at the same time.

[iSTRONG]

I'm clueless when it comes to nutrition/health. But from what I've always heard is that you shouldn't snack between meals (that's what my mum said). Big breakfast, small lunch (optional), medium dinner... what gives?

[thirddan]

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I'm clueless when it comes to nutrition/health. But from what I've always heard is that you shouldn't snack between meals (that's what my mum said). Big breakfast, small lunch (optional), medium dinner... what gives?

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basically eating continuously keeps the metabolism high, since your body needs the food to work...having a long time between meals is basically a short fast, where you body has gets nothing new to work with so it slows down its work...eating more frequently will also keep you from getting hungy thoughout the day...

[-sk00lb0y-]

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I'm clueless when it comes to nutrition/health. But from what I've always heard is that you shouldn't snack between meals (that's what my mum said). Big breakfast, small lunch (optional), medium dinner... what gives?

[/ QUOTE ]

basically eating continuously keeps the metabolism high, since your body needs the food to work...having a long time between meals is basically a short fast, where you body has gets nothing new to work with so it slows down its work...eating more frequently will also keep you from getting hungy thoughout the day...

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Adding to this is the fact that during long periods of fast (starvation) even for 4 hrs your body will start to catabolize muscle tissue. This in turn slows down your metabolism.