calling for a chop?

[ColdSteel]

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif
3 folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($0.5, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $0.5</font>, SB calls.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.5, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $4.5</font>

The SB has only been here for an orbit or two. In that time I saw him go all-in preflop once after I raised &amp; got a coldcall. We both folded to the push &amp; the hand wasnt shown. Thats really all I know.

My thoughts were that if I call I'm beating only a bluff or calling for a chop. Does that sound right, and does that mean fold?

[EMc]

At BEST you are calling for a chop. Fold.

[Sir Winalot]

Yeah. I'd fold. You're chopping at best.

[ColdSteel]

How do you like how I played so far

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you like how I played so far

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd check behind on flop. The turn bet is fine.

[SubaruSTiMike]

Turn should be a bet fold, I hate those cards that get you into trouble, those unclean outs, dirty dirty outs! It makes a straight for you but a flush for them, a check raise is pretty strong. I don't know if I'd semi bluff with a gut shot straight draw.

[Sh@i'tan]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you like how I played so far

[/ QUOTE ]

depending upon how often the sb completes, i often raise ATC after he completes. But i don't mind the flop bet, turn bet is good, now fold.

[xwillience]

this is one of those weird hands that I dont bet at all. I just call with it.

[kokiri]

[ QUOTE ]
At BEST you are calling for a chop. Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i respectfully disagree with our new mod.

in position i'm happy to call this turn, but i would then fold to a big river bet. i think that overpairs and 2p might play this way and slow down on the river.

it's a small pot still and i have a big hand. In a blind vs blind contest crazy stuff happens and villain cannot put you on as strong a hand as you have. If villain is prepared to fire again on th eriver in size, so be it you can fold in good consience but folding the turn is weak.

[kokiri]

[ QUOTE ]
this is one of those weird hands that I dont bet at all. I just call with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i kinda know what you mean - i've probably lost more with bigger hands in blind vs. blind contests than anywhere else, just 'cos you don't know at all what your villain might hold. As a result I am not keen to play a really big pot with my holding. But the pot is still not large

[EMc]

kok,

This here is a RIO situation. We stand to win the least when we are ahead (since all we are winning is back our own money almost 95% of the time.) When we are behind, and continue with this hand, we stand to lose the max.

My only reason that i do agree and may hesitate, but this is blind vs. blind battle. However, I think that we stand to lose a lot and win nothing here.

[Brent.]

[ QUOTE ]
depending upon how often the sb completes, i often raise ATC after he completes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do this a lot when the SB completes. I'm not 100% sure yet if it ends up being +EV, but in my experience I would say at both 25NL and 10NL I get a fold from the SB PF approximately 4/5 of the time and then proceed to take down the flop with a cbet at least 1/2 the time after that. (Feel free to destroy my crazy freakin' gorilla math).

If it's an opponent who I know will defend or playback (and is aware of my aggression in this spot) I will be more apt to take it easy and check, but against most 25NL guys they will complete and fold a lot (or at least this is what my experience has shown).

As played, I'm more likely to just check behind than bet here w/the GSSD.

Turn bet is fine, but it's time to fold.

[kokiri]

[ QUOTE ]
kok,

This here is a RIO situation. We stand to win the least when we are ahead (since all we are winning is back our own money almost 95% of the time.) When we are behind, and continue with this hand, we stand to lose the max.

My only reason that i do agree and may hesitate, but this is blind vs. blind battle. However, I think that we stand to lose a lot and win nothing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

K will do, kok i'm not so keen on /images/graemlins/wink.gif

i'm not losing a lot here, because i can call the turn and fold the river happily.

In a big, raised pot, i would be far more inclined to fold, but the pot is still small, and i would rather find reasons to call than fold if the EV is close to neutral, if only because it encourages me to play aggressively.

[xwillience]

[ QUOTE ]
in position i'm happy to call this turn, but i would then fold to a big river bet. i think that overpairs and 2p might play this way and slow down on the river.

it's a small pot still and i have a big hand. In a blind vs blind contest crazy stuff happens and villain cannot put you on as strong a hand as you have. If villain is prepared to fire again on th eriver in size, so be it you can fold in good consience but folding the turn is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont really agree with what you are saying here. The idea of calling with the intention of folding to a river bet here is flawed. Because villain wont ever slow down on the river. HE has a big hand and is willing to c/r on a very scary board. Im willing to let this little pot go, even if its a bit of a mistake, for an opportunity to stack him next time.

[kokiri]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in position i'm happy to call this turn, but i would then fold to a big river bet. i think that overpairs and 2p might play this way and slow down on the river.

it's a small pot still and i have a big hand. In a blind vs blind contest crazy stuff happens and villain cannot put you on as strong a hand as you have. If villain is prepared to fire again on th eriver in size, so be it you can fold in good consience but folding the turn is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont really agree with what you are saying here. The idea of calling with the intention of folding to a river bet here is flawed. Because villain wont ever slow down on the river. HE has a big hand and is willing to c/r on a very scary board. Im willing to let this little pot go, even if its a bit of a mistake, for an opportunity to stack him next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i admit i'm torn on the concept of calling with the intention of folding. It definitely feels like it's weak, but NLTAP says it's ok and i think in the right situation it is defendable.

the essence of my thoughts on this hand are that villain could easily have a marginal hand and think you are FOS. If that is the case then they are likely to slow down when you call the turn. On the other hand it is very possible that a 2p hand (let's say) makes another bet on river and we fold the better hand.

I think that where we differ is that i think that the chance that the villains hand is weker than we expect is quite high, essentially due to the B vs. B situation.

[xwillience]

SSNL rule #1: Villains are not playing back at you nearly as often as you think they are.

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
uNL rule #1: Villains are not playing back at you nearly as often as you think they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[kokiri]

[ QUOTE ]
SSNL rule #1: Villains are not playing back at you nearly as often as you think they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think villain is playing back at us here, i think he might be betting for value with a worse hand

[ColdSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSNL rule #1: Villains are not playing back at you nearly as often as you think they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think villain is playing back at us here, i think he might be betting for value with a worse hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you call you are hoping the opponent has exactly 98. Compared to the number of other hands that played this way, that's not many hands at all. If you fold the best hand one time in 50, it's not so bad. You have to in order to not call the 49 other times with the worst hand.

[xwillience]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uNL rule #1: Villains are not playing back at you nearly as often as you think they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]


NH.

[xwillience]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think villain is playing back at us here, i think he might be betting for value with a worse hand

[/ QUOTE ]


if he were betting I might agree ( hence my, "im only calling with this hand not betting" line.) but villain is raising here. Hes not raising for value with anything that we beat. It MAY be a split pot. But who cares about that. Splitting is -EV when you look at rake.