Hello. My name is DerFleisch, and I am a donk.

[DerFleisch]

I am here for my whuppin' now.

The whole table is LAGgish, but not completely stupid postflop.

Party Poker NL100 (6 Max)
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $46
UTG+1: $80.37
Donk: $108.15
Button: $182.10
SB: $57.33
BB: $93.59

Pre-flop: (6 players) Donk is CO with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Donk calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($5, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $3</font>, Donk calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($17, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $7</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $14</font>, Donk calls, SB calls.

River: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif ($59, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Donk bets $15</font>, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: $104

On a lighter note, the whole table lightly berated me for my play after the hand. I let them go for a while, and then told them that "they just didn't have the right pattern mapper."

[TheProbst]

this isnt really that bad.

I would like it more if you bet a lot more on the river and if SB and UTG+1 were deeper.

[DerFleisch]

My thought on the river was this: The players at the table were jumping on weakness, so I wanted to project some with the small bet, and induce a c/r.

[Manta]

Yeah - what's wrong? You just have to bet more on the river to actually get back the -EV you pay by drawing like this. If it were reasonable that somebody would RR the river this is fine IMHO.

[goofyballer]

[ QUOTE ]
You just have to bet more on the river to actually get back the -EV you pay by drawing like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the flop is +EV when you factor implied odds, and assuming both of Hero's draws are good on the turn, getting strung along with two other players in the pot is neutral EV (not even counting future bets when he hits) as he's 2:1 to hit his draw; if anything, building a large pot for when he hits his draw is probably a good thing.

[CIncyHR]

Bet WAY more on the river. Obviosuly you arent getting the immediate odds to call on the flo/turn, so to justify your call you have to get mor value on the river. You could probably have bet $30-40 here and gotten 2 callers.

[PayoffWiz]

The river bet is absolutely atrocious. Make it at least $40, although I would probably bet more.

[A43Braun]

I agree. You had an OE on the flop and added a flush draw on the turn. Why wouldn't you try to see the river for that price? Definitely bet more on the river though. That 8 wasn't an obvious scare card, so theres really no need to act weak, IMO

[ChipStorm]

Preflop is OK, and you have good odds to call and draw all the way down. As played you even recovered your investment on the turn, but you certainly could have gotten more. 1/2 pot river, standard value bet.

[Haiku]

By betting $15 you actually just passed breaking even EV wise, but you certainly should be betting more in this spot.

[dregal]

Does evetyone one agree with the turn call? I prob find a fold there.

[ChipStorm]

[ QUOTE ]
Does evetyone one agree with the turn call? I prob find a fold there.

[/ QUOTE ]
The only risk on the turn is that you're not closing the action. But you picked up the flush draw and very likely have 15 outs, so you definitely have odds to call.

[dregal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does evetyone one agree with the turn call? I prob find a fold there.

[/ QUOTE ]
The only risk on the turn is that you're not closing the action. But you picked up the flush draw and very likely have 15 outs, so you definitely have odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops - completely missed that we picked up a FD on the turn. agree with a call here.

[Sidekick]

I have no real problems with the way you played the hand up to the river.

Given the way the hand has been played a $30 bet should easily get called by those still involved in the hand. Both villains were betting and raising on the turn. The 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif doesn't make any really obvious draws.

I think you missed a good deal of value on the river by making such a weak bet. By betting $30 only 1 of them has to call to give you the same value and if both call then you easily regain the -EV from making the flop call without having direct odds.

[teamdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
By betting $15 you actually just passed breaking even EV wise

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd love to see your math behind this.

OP, hand looks very standard to me until your horrible river bet. On the bright side at least they both called.

[Grunch]

Well I fold the turn. If there was a mistake here, that was it.

A proper river suck bet would be about half pot, and don't disregard going all-in as a donk move. Here I wouldn't push, becasue they aren't deep enough.

[Gobgogbog]

I fold that turn, though I'm not sure if it's right. Super easy call closing the action, since you don't need your implied odds there. Not closing the action, you need some good implied odds, and while you probably have them on your straight draw, not so much on your flush draw. It's a tiny flush and the draw is obvious in a pot with this many people, so they won't pay you off much. OTOH, there is a not insignificant chance there is a better flush draw out there, which you may lose a lot to.

I'd be quite willing to hear arguments that the call is right, though.

[BalugaWhale]

DerFleisch,

If somebody wants to c/r the river, they're going to do it regardless of how much you bet. So bet more.

I also raise this pf, but limping is fine i guess.

The rest seems ok to me, with the turn call being quite marginal.

[goofyballer]

Quoting myself earlier:

[ QUOTE ]
assuming both of Hero's draws are good on the turn, getting strung along with two other players in the pot is neutral EV (not even counting future bets when he hits) as he's 2:1 to hit his draw; if anything, building a large pot for when he hits his draw is probably a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that the turn play is neutral EV even if you collect nothing on the river, why would you ever consider folding? Is one of your draws dead enough of the time to make getting sandwiched in between two players -EV? Or am I just wrong?

[teamdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold that turn

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
the turn call being quite marginal

[/ QUOTE ]

am i missing something? hero has 15 outs, meaning he needs 2-1 to call. it's $14 to him in a $38 pot which is 2.7-1. even with absolutely zero implied odds a call here is correct.

And he has big implied odds.

Straight outs are very well disguised. With the 2nd spade not coming until the turn, villains are less likely to suspect a flush draw and less likely to be on a higher flush draw themselves.

so hero isn't closing the action... so what? what's the worst that can happen - SB pushes and again he's getting correct odds to call?

[Gobgogbog]

I had missed that if SB pushes he's still getting correct odds /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[centja1]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I fold the turn. If there was a mistake here, that was it.

A proper river suck bet would be about half pot, and don't disregard going all-in as a donk move. Here I wouldn't push, becasue they aren't deep enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

unless i'm not counting right, UTG+1 has only $3 more than is in the pot right here and SB has about 2/3 of the pot in his stack.

with betting and raising on the turn them both checking to you, i would move them all-in and see who calls. besides you, somebody really wants to show down here, make them play sheriff to your "bluff".