Queston for Not Ready, BluffTHIS etc

[David Sklansky]

As to the following posted by Bossjj:

"During the first Gulf War, Israel agreed not to retaliate against Iraq. So all they could do was pray. People were afraid of a gas attack via a scud missile, or that one might hit a very populated area, killing dozens of civilians. Many secular Israelis joined the religious in reciting Psalms and praying for safety. 39 scud missiles did hit targets in Israel, causing millions of dollars worth of damage to buildings, but not killing a single person. The one casualty was a man who survived an attack but died of a heart attack the next day."

So assuming that the prayers came only from adament non believers in Chritianity and Jesus, can we thus assume (from your point of view of course) that the lack of casualties had nothing to do with those prayers? (I am not saying that they had nothing to do with God. Just the prayers themselves.)

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
As to the following posted by Bossjj:

"During the first Gulf War, Israel agreed not to retaliate against Iraq. So all they could do was pray. People were afraid of a gas attack via a scud missile, or that one might hit a very populated area, killing dozens of civilians. Many secular Israelis joined the religious in reciting Psalms and praying for safety. 39 scud missiles did hit targets in Israel, causing millions of dollars worth of damage to buildings, but not killing a single person. The one casualty was a man who survived an attack but died of a heart attack the next day."

So assuming that the prayers came only from adament non believers in Chritianity and Jesus, can we thus assume (from your point of view of course) that the lack of casualties had nothing to do with those prayers? (I am not saying that they had nothing to do with God. Just the prayers themselves.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Christians would have no trouble accepting that the prayers may have been the reason since we believe in the same God as Jewish faith. BossJJ probably has some issues with me saying that though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As to the following posted by Bossjj:

"During the first Gulf War, Israel agreed not to retaliate against Iraq. So all they could do was pray. People were afraid of a gas attack via a scud missile, or that one might hit a very populated area, killing dozens of civilians. Many secular Israelis joined the religious in reciting Psalms and praying for safety. 39 scud missiles did hit targets in Israel, causing millions of dollars worth of damage to buildings, but not killing a single person. The one casualty was a man who survived an attack but died of a heart attack the next day."

So assuming that the prayers came only from adament non believers in Chritianity and Jesus, can we thus assume (from your point of view of course) that the lack of casualties had nothing to do with those prayers? (I am not saying that they had nothing to do with God. Just the prayers themselves.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Christians would have no trouble accepting that the prayers may have been the reason since we believe in the same God as Jewish faith. BossJJ probably has some issues with me saying that though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So god answers the prayers of people who he plans to send to hell? Now wheres the sense in that

[BluffTHIS!]

I believe that God hears and answers appropriately the prayers of any sincere righteous person (or one striving to be righteous), regardless of their religion. Even if believers in some religions have a lot of it wrong, they also have an important part of it right, in that there is a God and he loves His children. Thus although other posters (you know who) will disagree, I believe that God gives partial credit.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As to the following posted by Bossjj:

"During the first Gulf War, Israel agreed not to retaliate against Iraq. So all they could do was pray. People were afraid of a gas attack via a scud missile, or that one might hit a very populated area, killing dozens of civilians. Many secular Israelis joined the religious in reciting Psalms and praying for safety. 39 scud missiles did hit targets in Israel, causing millions of dollars worth of damage to buildings, but not killing a single person. The one casualty was a man who survived an attack but died of a heart attack the next day."

So assuming that the prayers came only from adament non believers in Chritianity and Jesus, can we thus assume (from your point of view of course) that the lack of casualties had nothing to do with those prayers? (I am not saying that they had nothing to do with God. Just the prayers themselves.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Christians would have no trouble accepting that the prayers may have been the reason since we believe in the same God as Jewish faith. BossJJ probably has some issues with me saying that though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So god answers the prayers of people who he plans to send to hell? Now wheres the sense in that

[/ QUOTE ]

It would make no sense if that was a belief I held. But I dont.

[adhoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Christians ... believe in the same God as Jewish faith

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not strictly true. Christians and Jews both believe in the God of the Old Testament, but the agreement ends there. Christians believe that the God of the Old Testament was incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth - as the famous phrase in John 1 would have it, that "the Word was God" and "the Word was made flesh." Jews do not believe that the God of the Old Testament was incarnate in Jesus. Therefore, because one attribute of the God Christians believe in is that he was incarnate in Jesus, and because one attribute of the God Jews believe in is that he was not incarnate in Jesus, they cannot both believe in the same God.

To say that they do believe in the same God, and that they ascribe different characteristics to him, is not a coherent position. To illustrate. Most Christians would not agree that the Brahman of Hinduism is the same as the God they believe in; but many Hindus believe that the Brahman, in the character of Vishnu, was incarnate in Jesus. Because Christians do not believe in the person of Vishnu and the attendant doctrines surrounding belief in him, most would be uncomfortable with the statement that they worship the same God as Hindus. To make such an imposition on them is equally as inaccurate as it is to make the imposition upon Jews that they believe in the same God as Christians.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Christians ... believe in the same God as Jewish faith

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not strictly true. Christians and Jews both believe in the God of the Old Testament, but the agreement ends there. Christians believe that the God of the Old Testament was incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth - as the famous phrase in John 1 would have it, that "the Word was God" and "the Word was made flesh." Jews do not believe that the God of the Old Testament was incarnate in Jesus. Therefore, because one attribute of the God Christians believe in is that he was incarnate in Jesus, and because one attribute of the God Jews believe in is that he was not incarnate in Jesus, they cannot both believe in the same God.

To say that they do believe in the same God, and that they ascribe different characteristics to him, is not a coherent position. To illustrate. Most Christians would not agree that the Brahman of Hinduism is the same as the God they believe in; but many Hindus believe that the Brahman, in the character of Vishnu, was incarnate in Jesus. Because Christians do not believe in the person of Vishnu and the attendant doctrines surrounding belief in him, most would be uncomfortable with the statement that they worship the same God as Hindus. To make such an imposition on them is equally as inaccurate as it is to make the imposition upon Jews that they believe in the same God as Christians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im well aware of the theological differences between the two. But my answer was completely accurate with regards to the question asked.

[Zygote]

can you please explain to me why you don't think they are going to hell and, more importantly, why many christians do?

[adhoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Im well aware of the theological differences between the two. But my answer was completely accurate with regards to the question asked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if one assumes

1) that Christians believe that Jews worship the same God as they do, in which case - if one grants that it is not possible for the same God to have two contradictory attributes - one also assumes that Christians are wrong, making the statement "Christians ... believe in the same God as [the] Jewish faith" not useful.

or 2) that Jews believe that they worship the same God as Christians do, which no Jews (in this case an ethnic distinction, not related to the "Jewish faith")who do not fall under some theological stripe of Christianity (so-called "Messianic Jews" or "Hebrew Christians") believe. In this case the statement is false as a general proposition and in the few cases that are exceptions, it is tautological, identical to saying that Christians believe in the same God as Christians. Again, this is not useful.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
As to the following posted by Bossjj:

"During the first Gulf War, Israel agreed not to retaliate against Iraq. So all they could do was pray. People were afraid of a gas attack via a scud missile, or that one might hit a very populated area, killing dozens of civilians. Many secular Israelis joined the religious in reciting Psalms and praying for safety. 39 scud missiles did hit targets in Israel, causing millions of dollars worth of damage to buildings, but not killing a single person. The one casualty was a man who survived an attack but died of a heart attack the next day."

So assuming that the prayers came only from adament non believers in Chritianity and Jesus, can we thus assume (from your point of view of course) that the lack of casualties had nothing to do with those prayers? (I am not saying that they had nothing to do with God. Just the prayers themselves.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you get the assumption that only believers in God can communicate with him?

We all know Mason Malmuth is just a fairytale made up by 2+2 to inspire young gamblers, yet i've written and recieved a few nice PM's from/to him.

fim

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

So assuming that the prayers came only from adament non believers in Chritianity and Jesus, can we thus assume (from your point of view of course) that the lack of casualties had nothing to do with those prayers?


[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think I would know that?

[BluffTHIS!]

Don't dodge the question NotReady. What do you think the bible says regarding God answering the prayers of non-believers. Or what is just your own personal opinion?

[Peter666]

Before answering a question like that, one must assume that 39 scud missles hitting buildings but not killing people is a miracle or proof of Divine intervention. It is not. Millions of rounds are fired in war, seldom resulting in human casualties.

[txag007]

"So god answers the prayers of people who he plans to send to hell? Now wheres the sense in that"

He doesn't want to send anyone to Hell. He's not jumping up and down about it. He answers their prayers because he loves them.

[coolhandluke]

Regarding the question of why would god answer prayers of those he’s sending to hell.

In this case, there is a good chance that the praying jews in question aren’t going to hell. The book of revelation talks about a “remnant” of 144,000 jews that will get into heaven, there is a debate among Christian scholars as to whether this is a literal 144,000, or simply a way of expressing a lot of people from each of the 12 tribes.

[fmxda]

Saying this from a Christian perspective: I really, really doubt that only non-Christians were praying for the safety of innocent Israeli citizens. So regarding this particular phenomenon where no one died from Scud attacks, I don't think any observations about the nature of prayer can be made.

[danzasmack]

[ QUOTE ]
As to the following posted by Bossjj:

"During the first Gulf War, Israel agreed not to retaliate against Iraq. So all they could do was pray. People were afraid of a gas attack via a scud missile, or that one might hit a very populated area, killing dozens of civilians. Many secular Israelis joined the religious in reciting Psalms and praying for safety. 39 scud missiles did hit targets in Israel, causing millions of dollars worth of damage to buildings, but not killing a single person. The one casualty was a man who survived an attack but died of a heart attack the next day."


[/ QUOTE ]

is there any way to confirm this is true?

[Wes Mantooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As to the following posted by Bossjj:

"During the first Gulf War, Israel agreed not to retaliate against Iraq. So all they could do was pray. People were afraid of a gas attack via a scud missile, or that one might hit a very populated area, killing dozens of civilians. Many secular Israelis joined the religious in reciting Psalms and praying for safety. 39 scud missiles did hit targets in Israel, causing millions of dollars worth of damage to buildings, but not killing a single person. The one casualty was a man who survived an attack but died of a heart attack the next day."


[/ QUOTE ]

is there any way to confirm this is true?

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you asking to confirm to be true? confirm that no one died? or confirm that many people prayed for their safty?

[danzasmack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As to the following posted by Bossjj:

"During the first Gulf War, Israel agreed not to retaliate against Iraq. So all they could do was pray. People were afraid of a gas attack via a scud missile, or that one might hit a very populated area, killing dozens of civilians. Many secular Israelis joined the religious in reciting Psalms and praying for safety. 39 scud missiles did hit targets in Israel, causing millions of dollars worth of damage to buildings, but not killing a single person. The one casualty was a man who survived an attack but died of a heart attack the next day."


[/ QUOTE ]

is there any way to confirm this is true?

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you asking to confirm to be true? confirm that no one died? or confirm that many people prayed for their safty?

[/ QUOTE ]

That areas that were hit were populated and despite millions in damages nobody was killed.

[Ron Zee]

[ QUOTE ]
We all know Mason Malmuth is just a fairytale made up by 2+2 to frighten young gamblers, yet i've written and recieved a few nice PM's from/to him.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[dknightx]

Any Christian that thinks that all Jewish people are going to hell does not understand Christianity. Also, anyone that thinks ALL persons that do not believe in Christ will be sent to hell does not understand Christianity.

Also, God will hear the prayers of non-believers. I think there is a huge misconception of prayer. God does not do what WE want Him to do. If we pray according to His will, then it will be done. If we do not, then it will not be done. God is not a genie.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
God does not do what WE want Him to do. If we pray according to His will, then it will be done. If we do not, then it will not be done. God is not a genie.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was the whole point.

Since it doesn't make a difference, why bother praying? God's will would be done whether or not you prayed, wouldn't it?

If it does make a difference, what is the difference and how do you know if you were successful?

[govman6767]

Lot's of U.S. Soldiers go to church on their respective bases in Iraq. Lots of them are VERY religious.

Lots of Sick Radical Muslims are VERY religious.

So is the argument whichever one prays the hardest to their respective god is the one that lives ?????

I hope this is not what you nuts are saying.
When a bunch of radicals are walking towards you I would put a lot more faith in a flak jacket and gun than whipping out a Bible and trying to talk them to death.

I'm going to write a book "Govman's new age warfare"
Give up your weapons nations of the world from now on whoever prays the most shall rule/////////

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
If we pray according to His will, then it will be done. If we do not, then it will not be done. God is not a genie.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like it. Seems I'm in control of his will's doings.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that God hears and answers appropriately the prayers of any sincere righteous person (or one striving to be righteous), regardless of their religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think all the Israelis who HAVE been killed by enemy bombs must not have prayed, or just weren't righteous enough?

So I guess we can conveniently ignore the millions of righteous people who've been killed in wars, by terrorists, etc. But, when one particular attack misses its mark, God must have been protecting them.

That is like praising a surgeon who kills 90% of his patients, because every now and then someone lives.