Interesting Ruling re: Mucked Hand

[Hey_Porter]

Interesting little spectacle at Spirit Mount (in Oregon) this weekend. I wasn't at the table so I don't have the exact details, but it went something like this:
2/4 NL. As I mentioned, don't know the details, but after all the action on the flop one player is all-in with one other player in the hand; the pot is ~ 550. The turn and river are dealt, and the all-in player says "you've got it man," and tosses his cards approximately 8 inches in front of him. The second player then tosses his cards into the muck and pulls back his call that was left in front of him (for the purposes of this question, ignore that you shoudl never toss your cards until the pot is shoved to you). Other player immediately says "the pots mine, you just mucked your cards." Dealer agrees, other player immediately calls the floor.

What's your ruling? What (if anything) would change your ruling (e.g. distance of cards from the all-in player)?

[AngusThermopyle]

Assuming that neither hand had been tabled face up, the second guy to 'muck' wins the pot.
The "you've got it man" declaration and tossing his hand toward the muck was a concession. Actually, it was an attempt at an angle and angles should not be rewarded.

[Jive Dadson]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that neither hand had been tabled face up, the second guy to 'muck' wins the pot.
The "you've got it man" declaration and tossing his hand toward the muck was a concession. Actually, it was an attempt at an angle and angles should not be rewarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said. The second guy to muck gets the hand. The first guy to muck gets a stern warning.

[RR]

You will never catch me enforcing a horrible rule, but some places have a line to encourage angles. The way the anlge line works is if you throw something towards it likes chips or cards, but it doesn't cross it it doesn't count as throwing it in at all.

[Ignignokt]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your ruling? What (if anything) would change your ruling (e.g. distance of cards from the all-in player)?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, your title means that you think WE'D make an interesting ruling??

Okay, I'm game. Floor kicks both players in the nuts and chops the pot, putting both of them on crazy monkey tilt.

[Hey_Porter]

Clever. The "interesting ruling" is forthcoming, I decided to do it this way.

[Hey_Porter]

Ruling:
The floor came over and, apparently unable to take the dealer for his word on what happened, decided to rack the pot and have security look at the tapes. His instructions to them were to tell him "whether the player in the ten seat [the all-in player] gave up control of his cards." Apparently security told him that the player had not. For whatever reason (perhaps because the other player not all-in was quite vocal), his ruling was to SPLIT THE POT.

Issues:
- No decision should have involved splitting the pot. Either the all-in mucked his cards first, or he didn't muck his cards.
- It seems odd to ask security about a "poker motion." I think the floor should have at least viewed the video himself if he was going to rely on it at all.
- The fact that the all-in was in the ten seat, in my opinion, makes a difference. I will often drop my cards just a few inches in front of me, knowing that the dealer will just scoop them up.
- An aside that does nothing but show this was an obvious angle shoot, during the ensuing argument right after the occurence, the "other" player said about the all-in players hand, "he's just being a snake, he's only got 5-high." The all-in then reached over and flipped over his hand, sure enough showing 5 high.
- In a discussion well after the hand, one of the floors, while trying to explain the ruling to the "other" player, made the mistake of telling him that, in her opinion, the all-in players hand was mucked. She apparently didn't realive that that was the pertinent question, because she then tried to explain why the pot still should have been split.

Anyway, long story short, if the cards were placed on the table faced down in any kind of forward motion towards the muck, it seems to me that shoudl be a muck.

[AngusThermopyle]

Just to show you:
1. Incompetent dealer
2. Incompetent floor
3. Security probably with no poker knowledge, and less than optimal equipment
4. Horrible ruling

Floor/security same refs who worked the Oklahoma/Oregon game?

[zuluking]

The second player is a moron for not holding onto his cards until the pot was pushed to him. The all-in guy...I would beat his a$$ in the casino parking lot at the end of the night.

[yasher]

[ QUOTE ]
The second player is a moron for not holding onto his cards until the pot was pushed to him. The all-in guy...I would beat his a$$ in the casino parking lot at the end of the night.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if he was a big biker walking to his Harley?