The state of Notre Dame football.

[damaniac]

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Aren't Michigan and ND off of each other's schedules coming up soon? How do these good classes coincide with those years? I'll be pissed if Michigan's good upcoming classes and ND's don't play each other.

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We play UM through 2010. In 2011-2012, we're playing Oklahoma. The good news is, ND and UM signed like a 25 year extension of the series beginning in 2013. I can't stand the Wolverines, but ND and UM's destinies have intertwined so much over series' history that it would be awful for college football fans if it were discontinued.

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Yeah, it's a good series and I want to continue it, but I'd kind of like to do 2 on, 2 off, or something like that. Now, if we're actually willing to schedule a second "marquee" opponent, at least half the time, then I wouldn't mind. But if we're doing ND and 3 cupcakes then I hate it because I really like to get some variety. I'd love to play Oklahoma, Florida, and Texas.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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So your point is that Ty is a better recruiter than the guy who was at ND before him?

BTW did Ty go 1-7 two years after he luckboxed his way to 8-0?

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Actually, I'd rate Ty's predecessor Bob Davie as a far better recruiter than Ty...Davie simply never coached and developed that talent (we'll know how good CW is next year in this regard).

Reread this thread to find my analysis as to why the Irish are awful this year.

[TomCollins]

Getting outgained by OSU 617 to 348 is playing close? Man, it would suck if I had such low expectations. Once the 2nd quarter hit, I don't even remember feeling the game was in doubt at all.

[DVaut1]

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There is no comparison to the 2005 Irish, which regularly blew opponents out, and only lost in OT to MSU, USC with the "Bush Push", and played OSU close for 58 minutes in the Fiesta Bowl until the Buckeyes put on a 2nd TD lead w/2 minutes left.

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In 2005, they beat what would eventually be a 7-5 Michigan team 17-10 while getting outgained in total yardage and winning the turnover battle; a turnover battle that included a Chad Henne fumbling the snap on the the ND 1 yard line, Chad Henne throwing a pick from inside the red zone on the ND 1 yard line, and another drive that stalled on the ND 5 yard line. Credit to the ND defense that game, but since you concede winning the turnover battle is mostly high variance and indicative of mostly luck ("zomg Ty's 8-0 team luckboxed its way into so many turnovers" you say), you should admit that ND was ridiculously lucky to beat a very mediocre Michigan team, given that we turned the ball over twice on the ND goaline and should have had another score.

You "blew everyone else out" because you played a 5-6 Tennessee team that didn't make a bowl, a 5-6 Pitt team that didn't make a bowl, a 5-6 Purdue team that didn't make a bowl, a 5-6 Stanford team that didn't make a bowl, a 6-6 BYU team, Washington (2-9 that season), Syracuse (1-10 that season), and Navy. And one of ND's losses at home that season was to those unstoppable Gods of the Gridiron, the 5-6 in 2005 MSU Spartans, noted for (like most of the rest of ND's opponents that year) not making a bowl game.

But I understand beating a crummy 7-5 Michigan team via high variance events is the signature win in Weis's career at ND (along with the stunning 31-34 upset of USC in the Green uniforms that will live on forever in Notre Dame lore as the greatest game of Jabba the Weis's carreer), so I can't blame you for a revisionist history of Notre Dame's historic 2005 season when Weis took Ty's incompetent players and led them to huge blowouts over college football powerhouses like Washington and Syracuse (3 combined wins in 2005). What the hell else are you going to point to justify the constant fellatio Weis gets from ND fans, the 10 year contracts he gets handed, etc? Certainly no accomplishments based on actual events. So it's completely understandable why ND fans would have to invent a mythology around the "2005 Irish" and the legendary job Charlie did, coaching them up to victories over service academies, Stanford, 1-10 Syracuse, and 7-5 Michigan.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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There is no comparison to the 2005 Irish, which regularly blew opponents out, and only lost in OT to MSU, USC with the "Bush Push", and played OSU close for 58 minutes in the Fiesta Bowl until the Buckeyes put on a 2nd TD lead w/2 minutes left.

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In 2005, they beat what would eventually be a 7-5 Michigan team 17-10 while getting outgained in total yardage and winning the turnover battle; a turnover battle that included a Chad Henne fumbling the snap on the the ND 1 yard line, Chad Henne throwing a pick from inside the red zone on the ND 1 yard line, and another drive that stalled on the ND 5 yard line. Credit to the ND defense that game, but since you concede winning the turnover battle is mostly high variance and indicative of mostly luck ("zomg Ty's 8-0 team luckboxed its way into so many turnovers" you say), you should admit that ND was ridiculously lucky to beat a very mediocre Michigan team, given that we turned the ball over twice on the ND goaline and should have had another score.

You "blew everyone else out" because you played a 5-6 Tennessee team that didn't make a bowl, a 5-6 Pitt team that didn't make a bowl, a 5-6 Purdue team that didn't make a bowl, a 5-6 Stanford team that didn't make a bowl, a 6-6 BYU team, Washington (2-9 that season), Syracuse (1-10 that season), and Navy. And one of ND's losses at home that season was to those unstoppable Gods of the Gridiron, the 5-6 in 2005 MSU Spartans, noted for (like most of the rest of ND's opponents that year) not making a bowl game.

But I understand beating a crummy 7-5 Michigan team via high variance events is the signature win in Weis's career at ND (along with the stunning 31-34 upset of USC in the Green uniforms that will live on forever in Notre Dame lore as the greatest game of Jabba the Weis's carreer), so I can't blame you for a revisionist history of Notre Dame's historic 2005 season when Weis took Ty's incompetent players and led them to huge blowouts over college football powerhouses like Washington and Syracuse (3 combined wins in 2005). What the hell else are you going to point to justify the constant fellatio Weis gets from ND fans, the 10 year contracts he gets handed, etc? Certainly no accomplishments based on actual events. So it's completely understandable why ND fans would have to invent a mythology around the "2005 Irish" and the legendary job Charlie did, coaching them up to victories over service academies, Stanford, 1-10 Syracuse, and 7-5 Michigan.

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Fair enough, call the win vs. UM in '05 lucky (they were ranked #3 at the time but whatever). The main point of my post was that Ty settled into an expected mediocrity level when huge turnover margins and defensive scoring dried up. Weis followed a 9-3 year with a 10-3 effort, which while not spectacular, was the first back to back 9+ win seasons for ND since '92-'93 (which, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, was the last time ND had an elite football program IMO).

The jury is still out with me for whether Weis will be an elite college head coach. Please find me some examples of "constant Weis fellatio" of ND fans right now...I know I've been unafraid to be critical of what's gone wrong this season. There are currently signals that point in both directions (+awesome recruiting, smart/hard working coach who is unafraid to self evaluate and fix what isn't working) (-lack of a "signature win" so far, gross offensive/special teams underperformance with a very young team) What is beyond dispute for me is the mediocrity that Willingham brings to a program and how he'll never be more than a .500 level coach. Which is why, despite the anti-Irish vitriol, I can't help but feel bad for Bernie and other honest Husky fans who will watch a program with a fine football tradition continue to languish in mediocrity.

You've obviously made up your mind on Weis. Fine. So tell me, would you be excited if Willingham replaced LLLoyd next year? I somehow doubt it.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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Getting outgained by OSU 617 to 348 is playing close? Man, it would suck if I had such low expectations. Once the 2nd quarter hit, I don't even remember feeling the game was in doubt at all.

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You were probably too distracted by the nausiating Brady Quinn sister/A.J. Hawk story line ABC kept peddling throughout the game.

I remember being pretty happy with how ND held on for most of the game against a sick, sick Buckeye squad that would be playing in the National Championship game if they had only edged out Texas earlier in the season (and would spend all of 2006 ranked #1 until the BCS Title game).

[shemp]

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The main point of my post was that Ty settled into an expected mediocrity level when huge turnover margins and defensive scoring dried up.

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So Ty wasn't extended because the faithful understood that turnover margin is a sign of a luck box. Meanwhile, USC was top 5 in turnovers from 2001-2005, and generally lauded for creating turnovers.

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Weis followed a 9-3 year with a 10-3 effort

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While a lot of talk is made of 2005 (nicely shredded by DVaut), it's that 2006 year that I think folks might look hardest at and see some signs, because you really can't take away from the 2005 Irish beating USC.

Anyhow, you say that both Ty and Charlie bear some responsibility for this years squad, and to an extent you must be right. What I like to hear is an estimate of their relative responsibility in Notre Dame being 1-7 and a home dog against Navy. 50/50? 60/40?

[Bigdaddydvo]

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The main point of my post was that Ty settled into an expected mediocrity level when huge turnover margins and defensive scoring dried up.

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So Ty wasn't extended because the faithful understood that turnover margin is a sign of a luck box. Meanwhile, USC was top 5 in turnovers from 2001-2005, and generally lauded for creating turnovers.


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USC was great at a lot of things during those years. Sure, creating turnovers is nice. What is bad is if you almost exclusively rely on turnovers and defensive scoring as the centerpiece of your strategy to win at the expense of fielding a productive offense. To my recollection, very few opposing defensive coordinators lost sleep over how to defend the vaunted Bill Diedrick "bubble screen." But seeing as how many on this board see this as sound football strategy, I'll extrapolate and start to rely on my A-7 offsuit sucking out on pocket queens to help me regularly win poker tournaments.

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Anyhow, you say that both Ty and Charlie bear some responsibility for this years squad, and to an extent you must be right. What I like to hear is an estimate of their relative responsibility in Notre Dame being 1-7 and a home dog against Navy. 50/50? 60/40?

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I really have no idea. The best indicator will be next season when 3/4 of the team will be Weis recruits. A strong '08 Irish campaign would seem to shift more responsibility to Willingham for this year's disaster, while the converse would likely exonerate Willingham somewhat.

[domer2]

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We were unranked to start 2007 and many of us considered it a lost season anyway with so few upperclassman

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Yeah, you guys just knew it was going to be a lost season. Set your internet time machines back to August and discover the hilarious truth:



http://bluegraysky.blogspot.com/2007...68030567018432

This isn't one, but NINE Notre Dame bloggers predictions from the preseason. This isn't just a singular, crazy fool I dug up. This is Notre Dame's most popular blog, and they got NINE Notre Dame bloggers together to predict Notre Dame's record preseason, and the ABSOLUTE WORST two of the guys came up with is 8-4! One guy thought ND was going 11-1! LOL

But yeah, yeah, Domer nation just knew this was going to be a "lost" season.

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I know the guys at BGS. In that list are two serious predictions (Pat and Jay), and the rest is from their group of friends. Friends. Not "ND bloggers." They may be on the blog list, but find me more than 1 posts a month from one of them and I'd be amazed. Nah, that is a Jay and Pat blog (8-4 and 9-3 predictions respectively).

To put it in additional perspective, the prediction guy at NDNation (JVan), which IS the main ND site, predicted a 7 win season.

And by the way, a "lost season" I would charactize as 8-4 and Gator Bowl. Many ND fans thought we would go 8-4, including me. It's been much worse than expected obviously, but by the same token, there weren't really high expectations for success. Make sense? Next season there will be high expectations for success. And if those aren't met he will be shown the door, and if they are met, they will be extremely high for 2009 as all of the premiere talent will then be upperclassmen.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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you really can't take away from the 2005 Irish beating USC.


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To borrow from Economics 101, I think the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility can be safely applied to the humor of this joke between its 99th and 100th iterations.