Key Concept: What is the correct answer? (NLTRN)

[Indiana]

Obviously it is correct to play tight out of position HU...BUT there must be times when we should loosen up our starting requirments. It appears that there are two schools of thought out there when considering how to open your calling range out of position against button raises from a loose preflop raiser.....So here's my question:

"Against a loose button raiser, is it better to open your pre-flop calling range out of position or tighten it up?"

I know what my opinion is, but many good players disagree about this.

[ChicagoRy]

I generally try to keep most of the action and major pots being played on my button. This forces players to play virtually mistake free and gives me a much bigger advantage in the first two levels as to how I want to play them.

This, I believe, is more of a lower stakes school of thought. I should probably call more OOP but I've never felt the need to get myself into marginal situations unless I am playing a specific type of player.

I will call more OOP if the player is very good and plays well in 3-bet pots OTB and my advantage OTB is not going to be great (due to their skill level and lack of giving me action).

I will also call OOP more frequently if a player is extremely bad (I.E. he is very predictable and bets only when he has a hand, or checks down his strong hands and bet/folds his air). Against a very passive player that doesn't quite fit the descriptions above I may call a lot more with drawing hands.

One rule generally applies no matter who I am playing: I do not call when short, I raise/shove or fold. I think a big leak players have is calling when blinds to stack ratio is small. I try not to do this often.

Exceptions always apply, but I think I've said enough so that my opinions and views about this are clear enough. I'll post more after receiving more replies.

[bbbushu]

ry,

around which effective stack size do you think shove/fold becomes correct?

[ChicagoRy]

Depending on the player generally 15-20 is when I stop flat calling OOP, regardless of my hand.

There are exceptions based on reads I have that alters the difference in value I feel I have between raising/shove or folding and calling OOP. There isn't much of a "frequency" thing as far as playing big hands differently because I rarely play the same players more than a few times each at most. If I'm going to get tricky it is for a good reason and not just to "mix things up."

An example would be a guy that raises a very wide range at the 15-20bb level. I would be raising a wider than usual range OOP. If I know he cbets almost everything I'll probably flat call with a hand like say AA OOP. QQ would be good here as well. But for AA I would just c/r all in on the flop and he would be committed with a lot of hands and I'm crushing his range. That would be an example against a specific type of player that I feel flat calling at these kind of blind levels is more valuable to me than raising his wide opening range of hands (meaning he folds a ton). It would still be profitable to raise a hand like AA here obviously, but I may get more profit overall by flat calling and c/r all in.

Also, I don't want to make it seem like if I have 21 bbs I'm flat calling OOP a lot. I am not. It's just usually around 15-20 I don't flat call at all OOP.

[how_can_losing?]

I think it depends a lot on opponent's postflop play. I find that there are lots of players who are willing to raise pf but chicken out on the flop.

Against minbetters I will loosen up to see if I can hit a good drawing flop and hit my big hand for cheap.

Some aggros will pfr and then psb flop and turn with nothing. Against these players I would tighten up and call mostly with high cards. If I hit TPGK, I will c/r flop. If villain is superaggro and will fire again on turn, I will flat call flop, c/r turn. It can be really aggravating to play against these opponents when you go card dead, but you need to hang in there in the early levels when blinds are small, and limit your losses. Don't open up against these players, as you will most likely lose too much when you miss the flop. Once in a while it may be correct to float the flop, c/f the turn to goad them into betting flop and turn when you have TP or better.

I guess the key question for me is, how easily can you take the pot away (on the flop or turn) from a loose pf raiser?

If villain is weak/tight enough, loosen up, float, and c/r or donkbet flop/turn. If villain is truly weak I prefer to donkbet because this is cheaper than a c/r. If villain is the type to cbet most flops and fold without a strong hand, I prefer to c/r as this picks up more chips.

If villain is aggro, calling station, or both, tighten up and play high cards strongly.

Of course, we're not even discussing 3betting pf yet, but I'll leave that for another post.

Any problems with my thinking?

[bbbushu]

ry,

great post tyvm

[ChicagoRy]

HCL -Your post has a good basic thought process on how to play different players. Obviously there is a lot more that can factor in and change your decisions and strategy, but this isn't a game that is "ABC" or it would be overrun with bots. Just make sure you don't float too much or give away some of your strong hands, often times check calling is more valuable than c/r against some of the types you listed.

bbbushu - Your welcome.

[how_can_losing?]

Ry, thanks for your feedback. I respect your posts a lot. I haven't posted much, but I've been lurking a long time.

[ QUOTE ]
Just make sure you don't float too much

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is a leak of mine if I play maniacs and I start to tilt.

[ QUOTE ]
or give away some of your strong hands, often times check calling is more valuable than c/r against some of the types you listed

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and I think in the heat of the moment I screw this up against aggressive opponents (tipping them off when I hit my hand).

If the board is harmless I might check-call all streets with top pair if villain is a superaggrotard. But if the board is scary and villain makes a big river bet, I'll usually talk myself into folding my one pair. This has to be incorrect against some opponents as I should have the guts to induce the bluff and call down light on a coordinated board. But often I'll opt to CR on the turn (or even flop if it's soaking wet) so I can't get bluffed out later.

If villain is aggressive but reasonable (i.e., will take a stab but probably won't go berserk on river) I prefer to ch-call to keep the pot small with one-pair hands, and maybe to give villain the chance to bluff the river if turn checks through.

Somehow when I play maniacs the board always seems to get really scary though, and either they suck out or bluff me out, or I blow them out of the pot when I shouldn't. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[ChicagoRy]

It might help a lot of times to think through a plan on the river. Think how he might bet against your different actions (small, med. large bet works fine, you don't need to be very specific) and think about your reactions to his bets given different scare cards that may come. Don't lean your actions towards "If an A comes I'm not calling because I put him on an A" but you could, for example, say "if the fourth spade comes I have to fold, or if the 7 comes making an OESD I have to fold." There's obviously a lot more that goes into it, but if you constantly find yourself second guessing your intentions on the river just try to have a plan before you get there and follow it.

[Indiana]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it depends a lot on opponent's postflop play. I find that there are lots of players who are willing to raise pf but chicken out on the flop.

Against minbetters I will loosen up to see if I can hit a good drawing flop and hit my big hand for cheap.

Some aggros will pfr and then psb flop and turn with nothing. Against these players I would tighten up and call mostly with high cards. If I hit TPGK, I will c/r flop. If villain is superaggro and will fire again on turn, I will flat call flop, c/r turn. It can be really aggravating to play against these opponents when you go card dead, but you need to hang in there in the early levels when blinds are small, and limit your losses. Don't open up against these players, as you will most likely lose too much when you miss the flop. Once in a while it may be correct to float the flop, c/f the turn to goad them into betting flop and turn when you have TP or better.

I guess the key question for me is, how easily can you take the pot away (on the flop or turn) from a loose pf raiser?

If villain is weak/tight enough, loosen up, float, and c/r or donkbet flop/turn. If villain is truly weak I prefer to donkbet because this is cheaper than a c/r. If villain is the type to cbet most flops and fold without a strong hand, I prefer to c/r as this picks up more chips.

If villain is aggro, calling station, or both, tighten up and play high cards strongly.

Of course, we're not even discussing 3betting pf yet, but I'll leave that for another post.

Any problems with my thinking?

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Ok phil ivey, just tell us who you are and stop hiding behind this new account. Seriously, this is a very good post and spot on. I believe this concept is counterintuitive, but against a more aggro opponent who will test you post flop you should tighten up, whereas against a weak post flop guy you can open up and either get to showdown cheaper or take it away from him on a later street.

Nice post.