Theory

[Noam Chomsky]

Ike,
thanks for the response. I'm assuming this guy is raising about 40% from the button, he'd have to call half the time (top 20%) and take the pot either by bluffing (with just over a pot sized bet) or making the best hand about 2/3 of the time to exploit this. Are people really doing this? I don't see it is why I'm asking.

fwiw, I'm not some 30/27 lag guy at all.

[Fat Nicky]

the main thing is, in many low limit online games, players are simply not good enough to adjust to light 3-betting (this probably includes me to some extent). basically, low limit tags fold too much

if i'm 3-betting light, i'm really only exploitable by those who are willing and able to exploit me...and this is a very small sample of low limit online players. and those i feel that can exploit me, i feel like i'm aware of their presence at the table.

[ikestoys]

[ QUOTE ]
Ike,
thanks for the response. I'm assuming this guy is raising about 40% from the button, he'd have to call half the time (top 20%) and take the pot either by bluffing (with just over a pot sized bet) or making the best hand about 2/3 of the time to exploit this. Are people really doing this? I don't see it is why I'm asking.

fwiw, I'm not some 30/27 lag guy at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the guy is any good at all, he'll change is raising frequency from the button and either play for stacks light preflop OR call, use positional advantage on the flop and get it in light.

And just to question your math, how in the world does the button have to win 2/3 of the hands on the flop to be profitable? The bets on the flop are going to be a lot larger than the bets pre, and you are sticking a cb into pretty much every one. Taking adv of that shouldn't be too hard

[Noam Chomsky]

[ QUOTE ]
the main thing is, in many low limit online games, players are simply not good enough to adjust to light 3-betting (this probably includes me to some extent). basically, low limit tags fold too much
hose i feel that can exploit me, i feel like i'm aware of their presence at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, I can think of less than five players (ok, it's only one) that I think is capable of exploiting this in my games, that's cause he's so nuts that I take a seat to his left every chance I get. lots of fish actually exploit this pretty well, without knowing it so I don't three bet lots of them light oop either but I feel safe in saying that you can do lots of damage to the vast majority of tags at my level by three betting their buttons. I'd love to hear more from ike/future/bilbo about the exploitative strategies involved here though as I know they're all better than I am : (

I honestly suck at exploiting this and combat it almost solely through light four betting. I think it's the tourney donk in me..........

[Noam Chomsky]

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Ike,
thanks for the response. I'm assuming this guy is raising about 40% from the button, he'd have to call half the time (top 20%) and take the pot either by bluffing (with just over a pot sized bet) or making the best hand about 2/3 of the time to exploit this. Are people really doing this? I don't see it is why I'm asking.

fwiw, I'm not some 30/27 lag guy at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

And just to question your math, how in the world does the button have to win 2/3 of the hands on the flop to be profitable? The bets on the flop are going to be a lot larger than the bets pre, and you are sticking a cb into pretty much every one. Taking adv of that shouldn't be too hard

[/ QUOTE ]

My general strategy involves three betting an 8$ raise when oop to $28 and c-betting between $34 and $36 (I'm currently of the belief that big c-bets in rr pots are stupid but could be wrong) but rarely more than that. I dunno, I did some quick math with me taking down half the pots pre and it came out to them needing to win back 2/3.

[ikestoys]

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Ike,
thanks for the response. I'm assuming this guy is raising about 40% from the button, he'd have to call half the time (top 20%) and take the pot either by bluffing (with just over a pot sized bet) or making the best hand about 2/3 of the time to exploit this. Are people really doing this? I don't see it is why I'm asking.

fwiw, I'm not some 30/27 lag guy at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

And just to question your math, how in the world does the button have to win 2/3 of the hands on the flop to be profitable? The bets on the flop are going to be a lot larger than the bets pre, and you are sticking a cb into pretty much every one. Taking adv of that shouldn't be too hard

[/ QUOTE ]

My general strategy involves three betting an 8$ raise when oop to $28 and c-betting between $34 and $36 (I'm currently of the belief that big c-bets in rr pots are stupid but could be wrong) but rarely more than that. I dunno, I did some quick math with me taking down half the pots pre and it came out to them needing to win back 2/3.

[/ QUOTE ]

if they continue opening 40% from the button then yes, you could probably expose them, but not if they tighten up, then loosen up, then tighten up so you have no idea what there range is on the button.

The 2/3 number is still wrong because they should be able to use their pos adv on later streets to make up more bets.

[Noam Chomsky]

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[ QUOTE ]
Ike,
[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the response. I'm assuming this guy is raising about 40% from the button, he'd have to call half the time (top 20%) and take the pot either by bluffing (with just over a pot sized bet) or making the best hand about 2/3 of the time to exploit this. Are people really doing this? I don't see it is why I'm asking.

fwiw, I'm not some 30/27 lag guy at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the guy is any good at all, he'll change is raising frequency from the button and either play for stacks light preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this stuff I do my self so I pick up fairly quick and adjust to easily(hence my thinking the original question somewhat silly and trying to use generalizations)
[ QUOTE ]

OR call, use positional advantage on the flop and get it in light.

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This one, I do rarely, can spot sometimes but generally scares the crap out of me cause I think it's a bit crazy with so little behind. Are people really doing this a lot? Is me not doing it a lot a leak?

[ikestoys]

[ QUOTE ]
the main thing is, in many low limit online games, players are simply not good enough to adjust to light 3-betting (this probably includes me to some extent). basically, low limit tags fold too much

if i'm 3-betting light, i'm really only exploitable by those who are willing and able to exploit me...and this is a very small sample of low limit online players. and those i feel that can exploit me, i feel like i'm aware of their presence at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is not an excuse to ignore what will help you be successful in bigger games. if you have a read that a guy folds to your 3bets/cb combo like water, then [censored] do it. But thats not always the case, and thats not the question.

[Fat Nicky]

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if you have a read that a guy folds to your 3bets/cb combo like water, then [censored] do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, these are the players that i do it against obviously. i'm not gonna 3-bet light against a constant floater/or someone who like to come over the top of my c-bets.

the problem w/the original post is the vagueness of the read on the button.

i can't really comment on the bigger games, i've never played higher than 400nl.

[futuredoc85]

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Three bet all of them a lot of the time, c-bet them all most of the time as well.

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Explooooooooooooooooitable.

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its not just exploitable its terrible. wtf is going on in this thread?

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loooooool!!!!!!!!!!!1

I'd love to hear why?

Christ, I gave the most generalized answer in the thread and did so specifically b/c I think it's a really stupid question as the way I play every one of these hands is depening on sooooo many factors that it's absurd to offer a real answer.

"A lot of the time" "Most of the time" EXPLOITABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since you think it's so exploitable, please, come to my games and exploit me, assign me the range in the OP every time I three bet from the blinds and c-bet and play accordingly I'd love it.

Oh, be sure to have my button and be opening 35-40% from that button as well as a good 22/18 would, know that I know that and exploit away.

Please tell me this is some absurd level.

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edit: harsh and unneccessary its way too early here. Ill type out an actual intelligent and useful response in a minute after some coffee

but fwiw i could sit in your games and i could exploit the [censored] out of anyone 3-betting my raises OOP this wide i guess the harsh nature of the original post was due to that part of your reply.