Simple reason why I do not think taxation = theft - Page 12

pvn · #**111** 08-19-2007, 10:24 PM

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If pvn and nielsio would admit that it's a sensational word that does not encompass the true intentions of tax supporters,

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I have no idea what the "true intentions" of tax supporters are. I am not a mind reader. I know what they are supporting, and it's theft. If some people take offense, that's their problem, perhaps they should take a harder look at what they're actually supporting.

As for relativistic morals, I'm open to the idea of alternative moral systems. i've always said so. I will say that of course people have subjective personal preferences when it comes to morals. And once a set of subjective personal preferences has been selected, moral systems CAN be objectively evaluated against those preferences. My personal preferences are for moral systems which are consistent over those which are inconsistent, and for systems which treat all people as equal (morally) over systems that have different classes of people. Do you agree or disagree with those subjective preferences?

Any system which makes an exception for taxation and treats it differently than theft can be OBJECTIVELY shown to be inconsistent. If you agree with the above preferences, then any such moral system is basically defective and inferior to systems which are consistent.

neverforgetlol · #**112** 08-19-2007, 10:25 PM

don't worry, in ancap land there will be no acceptable force. I mean air would even be privately owned, but you wouldn't be forced to use that because you can always just choke to death.

ALawPoker · #**113** 08-19-2007, 10:32 PM

You're jumping through hoops now.

By 'bad' I obviously meant immoral. Tanner and I claimed that we believe morality to be subjective, and you replied by asking how he feels about murder or rape.

My point was that it doesn't matter what moral opinion I hold about something if my point is that I believe morals to be subjective.

But I'll play along anyways. It's bad because such a norm would ultimately weaken human productivity.

Oh OK. I guess the world would be more productive if everyone shared this moral preference.

Hence, consequence.

It's just logistics to me, and it's determined simply by how society evaluates the effects of certain actions. None of us are omniscient, and as far as I'm concerned, we're all entitled to our own unique evaluation. "Moral" seems like an empty term that has no place in any argument.

Richard Tanner · #**114** 08-19-2007, 10:32 PM

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If it's really from someone else and it's taken by FORCE, then this ACTION is deemed IMMORAL, no?

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Immoral to me? Yes sure, I agree with you. Immoral to other people? Apparently not.

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No, not immoral to you. Immoral universally. Morality != opinion. Opinion = opinion. Morality = universal claims.

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What?? Morals aren't objective.

Cody

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Do you believe aggressive murder or aggressive rape is immoral?

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Even though this has nothing at all to do with the question I asked, yes I do believe they're immoral.

However, that means nothing when it comes to the objectivity of morals.

Cody

Copernicus · #**115** 08-19-2007, 10:39 PM

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Taxation isn't theft because there is value received for the taxes paid.

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Just like protection money!

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Very poor analogy. Protection is blackmail, after the payment you are only restored to your position prior to the demand for payment, not to an improved position.

Copernicus · #**116** 08-19-2007, 10:51 PM

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No reason to read this thread. Taxation isn't theft because there is value received for the taxes paid. Are country club dues theft, even though you only use the pool and not the golf course?

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Is taking your car theft if I give you back $20? Obviously not under your system.

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No, it is under "my system" and if you don't see why then no one should give credence to your FAQs, because it is patently obvious. Need a hint?

Copernicus · #**117** 08-19-2007, 10:55 PM

"The preference of the people who are strong enough to defend it is really all that constitutes morality anyways. "

QFT

Copernicus · #**118** 08-19-2007, 11:01 PM

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If it's really from someone else and it's taken by FORCE, then this ACTION is deemed IMMORAL, no?

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Immoral to me? Yes sure, I agree with you. Immoral to other people? Apparently not.

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No, not immoral to you. Immoral universally. Morality != opinion. Opinion = opinion. Morality = universal claims.

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Absolute hogwash. There are no "universal claims". Morality is a social construct and varies from society to society based on the majority views in that society.

neverforgetlol · #**119** 08-19-2007, 11:10 PM

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If it's really from someone else and it's taken by FORCE, then this ACTION is deemed IMMORAL, no?

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Immoral to me? Yes sure, I agree with you. Immoral to other people? Apparently not.

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No, not immoral to you. Immoral universally. Morality != opinion. Opinion = opinion. Morality = universal claims.

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Absolute hogwash. There are no "universal claims". Morality is a social construct and varies from society to society based on the majority views in that society.

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Absolutely. AC's use "natural rights" as some abstraction to "prove" their system is the only correct one.

pvn · #**120** 08-19-2007, 11:25 PM

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"The preference of the people who are strong enough to defend it is really all that constitutes morality anyways. "

QFT

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Might makes right?