200NL I try to get value and he minraises me.

Ben86 · #1 06-25-2007, 02:30 PM

Villian is a 35/12/1.4. What line would have worked better? I thought i was getting value but apparently not

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($391.50)
MP ($428.30)
CO ($417.25)
Button ($110.40)
Hero ($222)
BB ($200)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, 1 fold.

Flop: ($16) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $12, Hero calls $12.

Turn: ($40) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $35, CO raises to $70, Hero calls $35.

River: ($180) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $144

joeblack · #2 06-25-2007, 02:34 PM

I 3-bet this PF against a 35/12/1.4

As played on the flop, you should have c/r the flop to $40.

As played on the turn, standard, with that raise you are most likely beat.

River easy fold.

(wow... you botched this hand)

dirtylobster · #3 06-25-2007, 02:36 PM

I'd either lead or checkraise flop depending on my image and how the table's been running. Check/calling the flop sucks as you don't get any information about villains hand. The turn minraise gives you a hint and the river is obviously a clear check/fold.

I'd also 3-bet preflop most of the time.

ReptileHouse · #4 06-25-2007, 02:38 PM

I fold to the turn raise, personally. On this board, I don't mind your flop/turn line, although I'd have 3-bet it pre-flop against this guy. If it were a bit drier, I would c/c turn and bet river 1/2 pot for value if turn is checked through, check folding river if he bet turn.

As played, fold river.

Ben86 · #5 06-25-2007, 02:43 PM

Why do you all love check raising flop so much more than calling and leading the turn?

Poker_is_Hard · #6 06-25-2007, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you all love check raising flop so much more than calling and leading the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the advantage of check/calling and then leading?

Check raising exposes the strength of your hand and therefore allows you to get a read on his hand base on his reaction.

When you C/C and then lead, you have allowed the hand to move to the turn and you still have no idea where you stand. So when you lead bet gets raised you are now sitting with your thumb up your butt.. are you ahead, behind, does he had AQ too?... you have no idea and no cheap way of finding out.

Ben86 · #7 06-25-2007, 03:00 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Why do you all love check raising flop so much more than calling and leading the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the advantage of check/calling and then leading?

Check raising exposes the strength of your hand and therefore allows you to get a read on his hand base on his reaction.

When you C/C and then lead, you have allowed the hand to move to the turn and you still have no idea where you stand. So when you lead bet gets raised you are now sitting with your thumb up your butt.. are you ahead, behind, does he had AQ too?... you have no idea and no cheap way of finding out.

[/ QUOTE ]

if I Cr and am called i got the same information as leading for the same price except on a later street.. i think chk call and lead is good as well unless im missing something.

joeblack · #8 06-25-2007, 03:07 PM

Ben86: Why do you want to be a passive player?

I recommend the c/r on the flop to build the pot and put pressure on the bettor by showing the strength in our hand and getting a reaction on his hand. Continue with a bet on the turn etc..

By c/c and leading the turn... we don't have any idea on what kind of hand the villian has. On the flop Q65 (two diamonds), if he calls the c/r we can put him on a Q, 78 draw, diamonds. etc.

Raise em up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

p.s. I disagree with reptiles post above^^^

EgoSlasher · #9 06-25-2007, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you all love check raising flop so much more than calling and leading the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the advantage of check/calling and then leading?

Check raising exposes the strength of your hand and therefore allows you to get a read on his hand base on his reaction.

When you C/C and then lead, you have allowed the hand to move to the turn and you still have no idea where you stand. So when you lead bet gets raised you are now sitting with your thumb up your butt.. are you ahead, behind, does he had AQ too?... you have no idea and no cheap way of finding out.

[/ QUOTE ]

if I Cr and am called i got the same information as leading for the same price except on a later street.. i think chk call and lead is good as well unless im missing something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Several problems:
1. He can raise you with air often and give you an impossible decision.
2. He can raise you with draws and force you to often fold the best hand.
3. He can raise you with made hands.
4. You have no way of knowing which he raised you with.
5. If he calls you have no idea what cards are good/bad for him.
6. If he's tricky he can float the turn and bet/push the river on you.

There's more but that's just off the top of my head.

Edit: Basically you place yourself in a spot where villain can play perfectly vs you but you can't play perfectly vs him.

ReptileHouse · #10 06-25-2007, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check raising exposes the strength of your hand and therefore allows you to get a read on his hand base on his reaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're raising for information? Ugh. Really. Ugh. If you raise, it should either be as a bluff to get better hands to fold (no way he folds AA or KK here to a flop raise), or to get value from worse hands (unlikely he calls a flop raise with pairs less than a queen).

If you raise this flop, you're folding out worse hands and getting called by better ones. You're also bloating the pot out of position with two streets of betting to go when you have a solid hand you'd like to show down in a medium size pot. Not good.

[ QUOTE ]
When you C/C and then lead, you have allowed the hand to move to the turn and you still have no idea where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsense. Put villain on a range of hands. Play poker. When you lead turn, you're going to get called a fair amount by worse hands thinking you're just messing with them as well as sometimes by a draw when villain raised with a suited connector or suited ace. Better hands will sometimes call, sometimes raise. Worse hands will almost never raise unless villain is absolutely blufftastic. That's a much better situation, on a later street, for the same price as raising the flop.