Slowplaying the rockes

[Ampelmann]

Do you sometimes play this way against a TAG that seems to know what he's doing?

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
6 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>

[Befolder]

I do that a lot against my more aware opponents. If I raise them on the flop, some are likely to drop it there.

However it could be said that a raise on the flop will still often be called with overcards, but they'll likely drop it on the turn and you'll get no big bet.

I've wondered if I'm losing anything against those types be making the same play. It'll be interesting to see what others say.

Edit: It is important to have position on them in these cases like you do here. That way we can ensure a bet on every street and not missing any if they have the opportunity to check behind.

[milesdyson]

yes, absolutely.

think about hands like unimproved A8s A9s AT AJ KT KJ etc. etc. instead of letting him check fold the flop you get him to put in 1.5 bb at least. when he hits a pair with these hands you will get the bet back usually from increased action since you didnt cap preflop.

[Ampelmann]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: It is important to have position on them in these cases like you do here. That way we can ensure a bet on every street and not missing any if they have the opportunity to check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very good point. I don't think I'd check them if I'm OOP.

[Smurph64]

Variations of that yes. Though I cap it preflop way more than call the 3 bet because sometimes you get a really crappy flop like QQK and its easier to play safe with 2 more bets in the pot.

I think its best though to go for max win/loss on this flop though. It has a lot of cards that can come that really suck for you.

He likely hit the flop so any diamond, K,Q,J,10 to come may be bad cards for you.

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
Variations of that yes. Though I cap it preflop way more than call the 3 bet because sometimes you get a really crappy flop like QQK and its easier to play safe with 2 more bets in the pot.

I think its best though to go for max win/loss on this flop though. It has a lot of cards that can come that really suck for you.

He likely hit the flop so any diamond, K,Q,J,10 to come may be bad cards for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
A couple of flaws I see here Smurph.

First off, yes anything can happen on the flop, but it's a mistake to start thinking about all the bad flops that can come before it happens. You have to play your hand one street at a time. It's good to plan ahead some as Amp did here, but don't start worring about flop cards when right now there is no hand that can beat us.

Two, you have the villain on far too narrow a range to be scared of a lot of cards. There are no cards that come off on the turn that I'm still not raising his turn bet with. In fact, I'm raising them all, because he has far less a read on us, than we have on him. He 3-bet which tells us a lot. We didn't cap, which hides a lot from him.

A diamond doesn't scare me until I'm raised, but I'm still calling down from there, easily.

Edit: I too cap it a lot pf in most cases, but I just call a lot w/ this type of opponent when I'm in position and I know they'll fold too early if I show aggression too soon, thus not getting their extra continuation bets.

[Smurph64]

Well this is a TAG he is talking about here not your regular goof.

I am not mubbing it here just saying that I don't think this is a good slowplay hand.

I can probably haul at least 9 or ten hands when I was against AA and the flop came like this and he slow played and I hammered him because the turn took him out.

[Ampelmann]

[ QUOTE ]
I can probably haul at least 9 or ten hands when I was against AA and the flop came like this and he slow played and I hammered him because the turn took him out.

[/ QUOTE ]
10 out of how many? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I really don't think that there are so many cards that would cripple my hand. He cannot have every possible draw available. I also would raise pretty much any turn here. I think this is a clear value raise. I'm ahead more often than I'm behind, no matter the board (well, if there's a 4-flush or similar on the board I might think about not raising ...).

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
Well this is a TAG he is talking about here not your regular goof.

I am not mubbing it here just saying that I don't think this is a good slowplay hand.

I can probably haul at least 9 or ten hands when I was against AA and the flop came like this and he slow played and I hammered him because the turn took him out.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that he's a tag is why the play is good. Deception against good players, straight forward betting against goofs.

If we cap pf or raise on the flop, many TAGs will drop it there. We lost some value.

Against a goof, we just cap, bet and raise whenever applicable.

Let's look at the two plays assuming the villain never improves:
CAPPING PF: +1SB for PF, +0-1SB for flop (assuming villain c/c's), 0 bets on turn assuming they fold UI.
WAITING FOR TURN TO RAISE: 0SB for PF since we call, +1SB for villain's continuation bet, +1BB for 2nd C-bet by villain.

Total:
Bet now: +.75-1BB
Bet later: +1-1.5BB (About 3/4 of the villains will bet again on turn since they 3 bet PF, probably more, but I was conservative.

I'm sure my numbers aren't crystal, but there is a lot of value in waiting in this specific kind of case.

[Smurph64]

More than enough times to make up for the slowplay of the Aces that is for sure.

Slowplay may earn you 2 bets or it may earn you zero in this case.

I slowplay when I know I have no action if I bet. This hand has action so I raise it.

Its a great hand and I want to maximize the value while its there.

So far the only person who has made a mistake in this hand is me.