A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

[munkey]

I've been thinking/talking about this recently but haven;t quite got my thoughts up together. I play it based on villian as per gelford except I call more often vs loose aggros -basically 3bet if i think I'm vastly ahead of villain's range when the flop comes down i.e. they'll felt 7xx flop with 87 or I have FE from the 3bet or fcbet.

One benefit of TT/99 vs other 3bet hands is vs some villans 3bet calling range they dominate 88-55 and we either flop or miss so it's a relatively easy hand to get away from if we have to.

[Dr_Doctr]

There's no need to get annoyed and delete my small joke - I enjoyed the post and was about to comment.

I agree with most of what you say but it's discussed in a void. 3-betting with small/medium pocket pairs has other, significant, benefits. It disguises your 3-bets with monsters - if you're not 3-betting with 99/TT there isn't much you're 3-betting with. If you flop a set it's much easier to get paid off if Villian spikes TP or whatever. It's great for your image. It defines Villians range - you widen your 3-bet range from the blinds and he'll have to narrow his steal range - you can then get a better read. This is similar to what Gelford suggested about adjusting your range for these plays based on aggressiveness of Villian. Also I think consideration of this kind of theory is only useful against good regulars, of which there are precious few in the micros.

Of much more importance is recognising very weak players, figuring out in what way they are bad, and exploiting this correctly. Learning to truely exploit very weak players is a much more important skill that squeezing out marginal EV against regulars I think - and this probably applies for all limits. If you're playing with a bunch of good regulars you're in a bad game. If you're playing with a bunch of good regulars at a micro game it's a 2+2 invitational or something. This is not to take away from the value of the discussion in your post only from it's scope of application.

[creamfillin]

I think Gelford summed it up nicely.

Positional aggressor - 3-bet
Unknown - I prefer call
Tightish-TAG player - Call CO raise, 3-bet button open

If I have 99 on KTxr board in a 3-bet pot and I get action I'm done with the hand. I think a more interesting situation would be if the flop came all rags like:

3s 5h 8c

Hero leads for 2/3rds pot
TAG calls

What's your plan for an overcard/brick on the turn?

Or how about a flop with an overcard and a flush-draw like:

4c 8s Qs

Hero leads for 2/3rds pot
TAG calls or raises...

plan for brick turn?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, nice post!

I prefer 3betting strong PPs like 99,TT from the blinds, just to get control over the pot and get value from my hands.

I think your cbets are way to big for a 3bet pot. You can cbet 1/2-2/3 pot and he'll fold his missed PP or AQ or whatever.
So we have a lot more than just one PSB on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG (UTG): $50
MP (MP): $50
CO (CO): $50
BTN (BTN): $50
SB (SB): $50
Hero (BB): $50

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, MP calls.

Flop: ($12) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, MP Calls $8

Turn: ($28) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)

<font color="red">Hero?</font> (remaining stacks: $36)

Doesn't look much different to me, still pot committed with 2 streets to play

[Spurious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, nice post!

I prefer 3betting strong PPs like 99,TT from the blinds, just to get control over the pot and get value from my hands.

I think your cbets are way to big for a 3bet pot. You can cbet 1/2-2/3 pot and he'll fold his missed PP or AQ or whatever.
So we have a lot more than just one PSB on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG (UTG): $50
MP (MP): $50
CO (CO): $50
BTN (BTN): $50
SB (SB): $50
Hero (BB): $50

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, MP calls.

Flop: ($12) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, MP Calls $8

Turn: ($28) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)

<font color="red">Hero?</font> (remaining stacks: $36)

Doesn't look much different to me, still pot committed with 2 streets to play

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes a small difference, but it's neglible, you're right.
But I think we can shut down here.
If he folds to a c/r we might do this, but i am shutting down nearly everytime i get called on the flop.

Your investment argument is right, but without control over the pot, we have to fold to most of his turnbets.

Btw:
Why is his bet sizing so small compared to yours?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is his bet sizing so small compared to yours?

[/ QUOTE ]

It isnt. If you mean the $7 on the turn, you can make it 8 or whatever, and you can make the cbet £3.50 or $4, but it makes no difference

[fees]

fwiw calling here is bad agaisnt literally any single player even with a small prf raise over a medium sized sample without a read that he minraised AA or something prf. Typically you can interpret prf minraises as weakness, imo you are DEF ahead of his range so you want to 3b

[Spurious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is his bet sizing so small compared to yours?

[/ QUOTE ]

It isnt. If you mean the $7 on the turn, you can make it 8 or whatever, and you can make the cbet £3.50 or $4, but it makes no difference

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right again, just though the river bet was so much bigger than his bets before, but it makes sense.

[corsakh]

Did not read all, but I don't think your fair in the assessment of the villain. In particular his frequences.

There are generally three types of regualrs.

First type is on a nitty side. He is going to raise 30% OTB but only play back with say 3% of his range. He does not adjust. You can raise almost ATC against him and there is little need to balance. You show immediate profit preflop and when he calls you can safely c/f. Our hand is irrelevant. 3betting TT probably is a waste from value point of view, however I am not sure how well I can play it from OOP.

Second type is a tagfish. He calls for set value, flush value, implied odds value, bla bla bla. He plays small PP and SC cos he has position. He raises 30% he calls 15%. He folds most of the flop cos he misses. He goes bananas on some flops because he hit his set or two pair. He calls with top pair, middle pair and draws. Typical, very easy to adjust. Three bet, see the flop and play poker as if stacks were 3 times smaller. Playing this type of guys is like playing a 30BB stack. He is a live straddle in LP. Your are ahead of his range. TT has value and is important because his range has lots of 89, KQ nad 66 types of hands.

Third type is a proper adjusting TAG who is going to 4bet you pre and call/shove/float flops. Against this sort of player you need reads and analysis. He uses position to the max. Both raised and reraised pots with TT gonna be equally hard. The reason I prefer 3bet pots is that this negates his positional advantage and gives him less room to maneuver. Best advice imho in this spot is either don't interfere (play TT purely for set/overcards value) or change the tables. If you decide to clash, I prefer 3betting for stated reasons. You have to adjust your ranges accordingly of course. And of course, implied profit from AA/KK is the absolute deciding factor here.

But I have to admit it has a lot to do with the table dynamics, your playstyle, your cbet, 3bet, float frequencies and rangesm how comfortable you feel playing a particular hand against a particular type of villain form OOP, etc [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[members_only]

[ QUOTE ]


Hand 3: We 3bet and cbet, he calls

UTG (UTG): $50
MP (MP): $50
CO (CO): $50
BTN (BTN): $50
SB (SB): $50
Hero (BB): $50

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, MP calls.

Flop: ($12) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $10</font>, MP Calls $10

Turn: ($32) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)

<font color="red">Hero?</font> (remaining stacks: $34)

Net amount invested: $16
Net amount won: $?
Hand strength certainty: Totally unknown

<font color="blue">Now this is a horrible situation to be in. We have a PSB left, are OOP, and have no idea in hell where we stand. If we check, any bet he makes is going to commit us. Do we bet again? Do we shove? Was he floating with a smaller pair, or does he have the nuts? If we check and he bets or shoves, is he bluffing? How often is he bluffing? Why does he float the flop?

You are literally having to commit your entire stack without knowing a single thing about whether you are behind or not. We have not defined villains hand at all, we are in a huge pot, and we are stuck. Remember, villain plays well - his range is totally polarised - nuts or nothing. Thats what you should be trying to do, polarise your range, because you can see how hard it is to play against.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

???