What is good about faith?

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brad -

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not adverse to debate at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't doubt it. The only problem is---you're incapable of debate. On issues related to Christianity, you do not possess the cognitive status of a human being. Rather, in Jung's words, you are a "walking personification" of Fundamentalist dogma. You are not illogical, you are sick. And one cannot refute a sickness.

To paraphrase one more eloquent, "You say that you believe in Christ? But what matters Christ? You are His believers---but what matter all believers? You had not yet sought yourselves; and you found Him. Thus do all believers; therefore all faith amounts to so little. Now I bid you---lose Him and find yourselves."

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is Jung??

And I guess if being religious makes me "illogical" and "sick" in your view, then I guess I'm doing something right.

[/ QUOTE ]

What country do you live in? Do you seriously not know anything about Jung?

Anyways, I wasn't addressing your beliefs, but rather the way you believe them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of him...I, like the general populace of the world, have better things to do than read psychology books.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't exactly be proud to be 37 years old and at the level of the general populace in my ignorance of one the most famous writers in the 20th century on the subject of the human mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. How did you come up with that??

Let me reiterate...I have MUCH better things to do than to sit around reading some psycho babble garbage from some dead guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, I know. You have better things to do than read study of human mind from some 20th century dude. Like read the ignorant mystical babble from some dead guys from 2000 years ago. And then dedicate your life to that babble without questioning it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly the response I was expecting....Tell you what. I'll stipulate that this Jung fellow was a great thinker/writer/etc of the 20th century based on your input since I know nothing about him... IF ...you'll stipulate that you've never read the Holy Bible and will take the Christian view that it is correct & is the infallible Word of God. How about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Except I was a devout Christian until 17, have read every word of the NT, and most of the OT. And still have a Bible on my shelf that I pull out and peruse every now and again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Devout huh? What happened since then? Which denomination were you?

Sounds like you need to peruse it more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, extremely devout. I was Protestant, then full gospel christian non-denominational. What happened? I opened my mind to see through the smokescreen of religious dogma. I have perused it plenty. But since you are into book recommendations, I recommend you peruse it with a critical eye and read a few other books as well.

[Brad1970]

I didn't know 'Protestant' was a denomination but whatever...

I'm genuinely curious here so please humor me....what made you change at 17? Was it a life altering event? Did something happen within your church or family that pushed you to abandon Christianity? Or did you just roll out of bed on day & say "I'm done with it"...I know you don't owe me anything but I'd really like to hear your story. You can send me a PM if you like.

[Alex-db]

I think a lot of people change at that age as they develop the ability to think more critically. Becoming less naive or gullible about 'teachings' they just chose to accept as children.

It doesn't take a life-changing event for a child to realise that santa clause is fictional, and you wouldn't describe him as 'abandoning Christmas', he is just growing up and becoming able to see and understand the bigger picture.

Edit: I have spoken to a few people who become athiests at that age because they decided to sit and read the Bible themselves instead of relying on cherry-picked quotes as they did when they were children. Fully reading the contents of the Bible seems to be an effective route to losing faith.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know 'Protestant' was a denomination but whatever...

I'm genuinely curious here so please humor me....what made you change at 17? Was it a life altering event? Did something happen within your church or family that pushed you to abandon Christianity? Or did you just roll out of bed on day & say "I'm done with it"...I know you don't owe me anything but I'd really like to hear your story. You can send me a PM if you like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Protestant was as close as I can say. I went to Lutheran school but was not confirmed although going through confirmation. My parents (rightly) were against the dogmatic belief in a particular denomination and were against the practice of confirmation.

It wasn't a "oh snap" moment. Nor a life altering event. It was just a period of reflection looking back on all the things I was taught and seeing it built on a series of hypocrisies (like your unconditional forgiveness with one condition). Furthermore, to be brutally honest, I was realizing that Christian faith shortchanges the wonderful aspects of being alive (creativity, passion, reason), while celebrating what I thought were the worst aspects (blind obedience, subservience, shame as a sinner). It wasn't something I read that brought these thoughts -- they came from within and I was torn on the subject and felt guilty for questioning/losing my faith. Finally, I had the realization that if God was going to punish me for eternity for using my thinking capacity to see through the crap I've been taught, then so be it. Bring it on, God, because I'd rather be a martyr for what I believe is more true than an obedient follower of what I believe is false, or at best, misinterpreted by man.

Later in life, my readings and independent study confirmed these choices for me. And quite frankly, I was much happier and more at peace after I made this decision and felt now what true care for my fellow human and other creatures really means. One of the ironies I see is that faith in the Bible undermines our connection with the universe, other creatures, and even with other peoples. And I'm filled with wonder about the universe around me and revel in our greater understanding of it, and take it in with a skeptical, reasoning mind rather than relying on "faith" or the words of an ancient people who had much less information and much more superstition at their disposal. Interestingly though, this wonder at the universe and world around has made me in some ways quite "spiritual" (but with a healthy dose of skepticism). I don't discount the possible existence of a creator or even the "supernatural", nor do I believe we have any of the answers as to why we're here. But that's the fun of being human and what keeps me optimistic towards the future -- the things we will learn and see will blow our minds. I'd hope our destiny as living creatures is a quest towards unraveling the mysteries of a fascinating universe rather than enduring a purgatory test of faith in order to acquire salvation. But neither view would I dogmatically adhere to. I discount the ideas of those who think they have all the important answers from either some ancient text which when examined shows to be an inadequate representation (by my standards), or some modern text which proclaims some conclusion without adequate support. These types of books do a disservice to the very creation they supposedly explain.

Thanks for reading.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I have spoken to a few people who become athiests at that age because they decided to sit and read the Bible themselves instead of relying on cherry-picked quotes as they did when they were children. Fully reading the contents of the Bible seems to be an effective route to losing faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, Alex. I made it a quest at the age of 16 to read the entire NT and first 4 books of the OT. The quest helped shake my faith rather than strengthen it.

[Brad1970]

I get the feeling that you were, from a young age, were taught "man's view of how to be a good Christian". Those are my words & I'll elaborate in a minute...Sounds like your parents had you on the right path or at least tried to. I don't know much about Lutherans or confirmation. I assume confirmation is the same as baptizing which is what my denomination uses. Baptizing without accepting Jesus as your personal savior is pretty much worthless in regard to eternal salvation. I'm Ok with the fact that your folks wished to stay non-denominational. As I've said before, it's not about "joining a church", it's about a personal relationship with Christ.

Now, about my comment, "man's view of how to be a good Christian"...IMHO, in today's world too many pastors, priests, churches, deacon's, church elders, etc get so tied up in tradition, rites of passage & "you all should act this way" mentalities...that they totally miss the message of Jesus Christ. They don't preach enough on Jesus & his Word. I'm not saying all, but some. I have seen & experienced the stodigy, old, conservative churches where half the people are asleep or not paying attention. I hate to say it but Jesus wasn't there!!! The message was the same every week. Those type churches literally sit on their haunches & do nothing for the greater good. Oh, they'll sing & worship & nod their heads but in the end, they file out of church & point their fingers at the rest of the world for sinning. OTOH, some pastors, priests, churches, etc preach a new, upbeet personal-relationship-with-Jesus message. They're fired up, they're doing their best to spread the word & not make you ashamed because you're a sinner. Everybody's a sinner.

I may be wrong but it sounds like you either flat out rebelled against religion or somebody tried to "beat you over the head" with a Bible & it put a sour taste in your mouth which in turn caused you to seek answers elsewhere. Sorry for the ramble.

[carlo]

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to encapsulate faith according to Aquinas he states that Faith is that which leads one to the Good which is found through the True. In this the Intellect through Thinking finds the True and is led to God.

Accordingly, one does not and cannot have "belief or faith" in a falsehood nor does one state that one "wants something" and then has "faith" that this something will. happen.

The road to the "Good " and the "True" is an act of the Intellect which is carried through "Faith". In this respect "Faith" is an act of Knowledge.

The fact that the "man on the street" has "faith" that a desired event will come about only shows that all of us are still learning in order to reach the "Good" and the "True". Bumps on the road ,if you will, to that in which All Men seek on the road to the "Good".





[/ QUOTE ]

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
I get the feeling that you were, from a young age, were taught "man's view of how to be a good Christian". Those are my words & I'll elaborate in a minute...Sounds like your parents had you on the right path or at least tried to. I don't know much about Lutherans or confirmation. I assume confirmation is the same as baptizing which is what my denomination uses. Baptizing without accepting Jesus as your personal savior is pretty much worthless in regard to eternal salvation. I'm Ok with the fact that your folks wished to stay non-denominational. As I've said before, it's not about "joining a church", it's about a personal relationship with Christ.

Now, about my comment, "man's view of how to be a good Christian"...IMHO, in today's world too many pastors, priests, churches, deacon's, church elders, etc get so tied up in tradition, rites of passage & "you all should act this way" mentalities...that they totally miss the message of Jesus Christ. They don't preach enough on Jesus & his Word. I'm not saying all, but some. I have seen & experienced the stodigy, old, conservative churches where half the people are asleep or not paying attention. I hate to say it but Jesus wasn't there!!! The message was the same every week. Those type churches literally sit on their haunches & do nothing for the greater good. Oh, they'll sing & worship & nod their heads but in the end, they file out of church & point their fingers at the rest of the world for sinning. OTOH, some pastors, priests, churches, etc preach a new, upbeet personal-relationship-with-Jesus message. They're fired up, they're doing their best to spread the word & not make you ashamed because you're a sinner. Everybody's a sinner.

I may be wrong but it sounds like you either flat out rebelled against religion or somebody tried to "beat you over the head" with a Bible & it put a sour taste in your mouth which in turn caused you to seek answers elsewhere. Sorry for the ramble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I think you have me all wrong. My teen years were spent in a full gospel church. You can't get any more non-traditional, non-"rites" than that -- they were true believers who met at the junior high school auditorium or a hole in the wall church where jeans were fine, whatever you wanted, it was about God not appearances. It was ALL about Jesus and the Word. And when I examined that Word in depth, I found it lacking, that's all. No need to pin it on some externality that influenced me and it wasn't a rebellion but a purely personal matter.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get the feeling that you were, from a young age, were taught "man's view of how to be a good Christian". Those are my words & I'll elaborate in a minute...Sounds like your parents had you on the right path or at least tried to. I don't know much about Lutherans or confirmation. I assume confirmation is the same as baptizing which is what my denomination uses. Baptizing without accepting Jesus as your personal savior is pretty much worthless in regard to eternal salvation. I'm Ok with the fact that your folks wished to stay non-denominational. As I've said before, it's not about "joining a church", it's about a personal relationship with Christ.

Now, about my comment, "man's view of how to be a good Christian"...IMHO, in today's world too many pastors, priests, churches, deacon's, church elders, etc get so tied up in tradition, rites of passage & "you all should act this way" mentalities...that they totally miss the message of Jesus Christ. They don't preach enough on Jesus & his Word. I'm not saying all, but some. I have seen & experienced the stodigy, old, conservative churches where half the people are asleep or not paying attention. I hate to say it but Jesus wasn't there!!! The message was the same every week. Those type churches literally sit on their haunches & do nothing for the greater good. Oh, they'll sing & worship & nod their heads but in the end, they file out of church & point their fingers at the rest of the world for sinning. OTOH, some pastors, priests, churches, etc preach a new, upbeet personal-relationship-with-Jesus message. They're fired up, they're doing their best to spread the word & not make you ashamed because you're a sinner. Everybody's a sinner.

I may be wrong but it sounds like you either flat out rebelled against religion or somebody tried to "beat you over the head" with a Bible & it put a sour taste in your mouth which in turn caused you to seek answers elsewhere. Sorry for the ramble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I think you have me all wrong. My teen years were spent in a full gospel church. You can't get any more non-traditional, non-"rites" than that -- they were true believers who met at the junior high school auditorium or a hole in the wall church where jeans were fine, whatever you wanted, it was about God not appearances. It was ALL about Jesus and the Word. And when I examined that Word in depth, I found it lacking, that's all. No need to pin it on some externality that influenced me and it wasn't a rebellion but a purely personal matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine. If I had it all wrong, then I'm wrong. But a little more information on your church beforehand would have been helpful. I hope that you reconsider eventually. I'm sure they would welcome you with open arms. Jesus would.