Liberty Dollar office raided

[DblBarrelJ]

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At some point long before they "climbed to the top of their career ladder" every law enforcement officer faces many situations where believing in the liberty of others, the rule of law, or even right and wrong, is going to be a liability to their career. So, they make the choice. Of course, if you don't have any of those morals things are much simpler. Have you ever had to make those decisions? The arguement that I've been here to long for my morals too have any relevance is ridiculous (to me).

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No, I haven't. All warrants go through a constitutional process, if they don't the findings of the search are thrown out of court. I may not personally agree with the reason for every warrant I've ever served, but I've also never felt that I was causing irreconcilable damage to anyone either. Go to court, fight it. That's why the courts are in place.

Can you please explain to me the details you know of the process a sworn law officer goes through to obtain a warrant? I'm just curious because I'm trying to figure out exactly who I'm dealing with here.

[pvn]

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No one was beaten, no one was held at gun point, no one was killed.

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What do you think would have happened if the people working there had started to run?

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If you want to call a few guys in suits walking in with shiny badges saying "FBI, this is a raid, step away from your desk and file out of the office in an orderly fashion" "force", then we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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If I walk into a bank, hand the teller a note, and she gives me a bag full of money, would you say that no force was used? Would you say the money is now mine fair and square, she voluntarily gave it to me?

[AlexM]

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Boro, did you become a libertarian before or after you took your job as a publicly funded teacher? Shouldnt you have quit your job the instant you realised your paycheck was funded by coercion? You might want to turn the indignation down a notch or two.

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Borodog is not in a position where he breaks into people's homes and drags them off to prison for no good reason and possibly having to kill them if they resist. The situation is not remotely comparable.

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Boro and I both get our paychecks from the same place. If he disagrees with his job, he should quit. Telling me to do so when he's refusing is hypocritical.

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I did quit. My last day is December 17th. When is yours?

And I'm not telling you to quit. Unless of course you use violence against people who've done nothing wrong. In which case, yes. You should quit.

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Nope, I don't. Thank you for your approval. It means more than you know, I can assure you. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Really? No one in your prison in there on drug charges?

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No, I don't work minimum security. Everyone I deal with has either killed someone or raped someone. Some are also their on drug charges, but they killed someone in their drug trade, which is what put them in Max or Iso.

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Fair enough.

[DblBarrelJ]

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No one was beaten, no one was held at gun point, no one was killed.

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What do you think would have happened if the people working there had started to run?

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Thats a question with no definitive answer, although I'm sure in your mind, the answer is "They would've been gunned down".

The truth, however, is much more complicated. It would've depended on the agent's pre-determined threat level assessment prior to the raid, to the agent's determination of the involvement of low level employees, to thousands of other factors that would've been involved in answering that question that I don't know the answer to because I wasn't involved in the planning of the raid.

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If you want to call a few guys in suits walking in with shiny badges saying "FBI, this is a raid, step away from your desk and file out of the office in an orderly fashion" "force", then we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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If I walk into a bank, hand the teller a note, and she gives me a bag full of money, would you say that no force was used? Would you say the money is now mine fair and square, she voluntarily gave it to me?

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My question would be "Should I even attempt to continue a conversation with someone who believes this analogy has the slightest bit of relevance to this discussion?"

FBI agents going to a judge, taking an oath acknowledging they had knowledge of activities illegal per US code are taking place at ________ location, and _______ items are to be searched for, and if present seized, isn't even close to you robbing a bank.

Furthermore, you're not going to get anything from a teller by writing a note that says "Hi, I'd like some cash." The note will have to have a threat, or else the teller will not respond. Yet you already knew that, I'm sure.

[Bedreviter]

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If I walk into a bank, hand the teller a note, and she gives me a bag full of money, would you say that no force was used? Would you say the money is now mine fair and square, she voluntarily gave it to me?

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Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force? Do you think that using threat of force by law enforcement to seize property for use in a legal case is equal to civilians using threat of force to seize others property?

Are you opposed to the role of law enforcement (being in charge of stopping those who are breaking the laws of the country)in general?

[AlexM]

Something I'd like to say about this. While I obviously don't agree with the government's actions on this, I think that them calling their currency "dollars" and using the "$" sign is confusing and foolish on their part. It wouldn't be so bad if it always said "Liberty Dollars" but like on the coins it'll just say "Twenty Dollars". It's like they were trying to piss people off rather than trying to make a real currency.

[Bedreviter]

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And I'm not telling you to quit. Unless of course you use violence against people who've done nothing wrong. In which case, yes. You should quit.

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Yeah if you choose to enforce the laws of the government/system that are supported/elected by the citizens of the United States (Oh Im so naive who believe in the current "democracy") in stead of the laws that Borodog support you are clearly doing something wrong.

Clearly: Democracy/the will of the people < Borodog/The will of Borodog

[DblBarrelJ]

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Are you opposed to the role of law enforcement (being in charge of stopping those who are breaking the laws of the country)in general?

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No, he's opposed to law in general, or government, actually.

I actually agree with most of the sentiment, I'm just driven nuts by people who are willing to crucify the low level agents given the task of serving this warrant, when I have yet to read an attack on the agent or the judge who signed the warrant. A judge, btw, is free to refuse to sign any warrant at any time.

[ZeroPointMachine]

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At some point long before they "climbed to the top of their career ladder" every law enforcement officer faces many situations where believing in the liberty of others, the rule of law, or even right and wrong, is going to be a liability to their career. So, they make the choice. Of course, if you don't have any of those morals things are much simpler. Have you ever had to make those decisions? The arguement that I've been here to long for my morals too have any relevance is ridiculous (to me).

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No, I haven't. All warrants go through a constitutional process, if they don't the findings of the search are thrown out of court. I may not personally agree with the reason for every warrant I've ever served,

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Why did you serve them?

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but I've also never felt that I was causing irreconcilable damage to anyone either. Go to court, fight it. That's why the courts are in place.

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What do you consider irreconcilable damage? Does shutting down someones business and seizing all their assets meet the stadard? Causing someone to lose their job? Incarcerating them for any period of time when they committed no crime? How do you fight in court with no assets? How do you pay the rent and expenses generated by your business when you have no revenue and no assets? How do you reconcile things if the court does eventually throw out the warrant? Will they unbankrupt you? Will they contact all your lost customers and explain that it was all a big mistake and that you did nothing wrong? Will they decide that the person who requested or issued the bogus warrant should pay for their actions?

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Can you please explain to me the details you know of the process a sworn law officer goes through to obtain a warrant? I'm just curious because I'm trying to figure out exactly who I'm dealing with here.

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I'm sure you understand the process for obtaining warrants much better than I do. However, if the process isn't subject to some level of abuse by LE and the DA, could you explain to me why the courts would ever throw out a warrant?

[Bedreviter]

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Are you opposed to the role of law enforcement (being in charge of stopping those who are breaking the laws of the country)in general?

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No, he's opposed to law in general, or government, actually.

I actually agree with most of the sentiment

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OK. Even though I believe that government as we have it now is too big and are to intrusive of the rights of the individual I would never want to be in a society/area without government that make laws and an agency that enforce them.