The Ass end of a straight draw

[Pog0]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey rsliu - try posting this in the Micro-Limit forum. This forum is actually for shorthanded games, 6 players or less. Which is one of the reasons that some respondents have suggested raising preflop, as they don't seem to realize it is a full ring game.

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Only one respondent has suggested raising preflop and no one agrees with him.

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey rsliu - try posting this in the Micro-Limit forum. This forum is actually for shorthanded games, 6 players or less. Which is one of the reasons that some respondents have suggested raising preflop, as they don't seem to realize it is a full ring game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first two players folded so this is pretty much a 6m hand imo. The only difference is that an unknown 5/10 fr player is different then your standard 5/10 6m unknown.

A PFR here is bad.

[DCWildcat]

Out of curiosity, why is a PFR so bad here?

Pokerstoved, giving SB a random range (it's prob. pretty close to that) and MP1 a fairly wide range (say 22-99, A2s-ATs, A2o-AJo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, K9s-KQs, QTs-QJs, JTs, T9s), we've got a very slight equity advantage. While we're OOP, taking control of the hand helps that out a lot. Neither SB or MP has showed much strength and we're very likely buying this pot on the flop.

Even if it's not +EV, there's really no reason for y'all to be blowing this out of proportion like some huge error. Raising in this spot can't cost more than fractions of a penny in the long run.

[milesdyson]

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While we're OOP, taking control of the hand helps that out a lot ... we're very likely buying this pot on the flop.

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raising preflop only makes it harder to win this pot unimproved on the flop. now that you've raised preflop, clearly they expect a bet on any flop. they'll call you with a ton of stuff and the pot will be twice as big and you'll be out of position. raising preflop also makes them play better when you make a pair of aces. like, a lot better. if you just check, mp1 is going to bet the flop about 100% of the time when checked to. if you want to steal this pot, check here and bet the flop when SB checks. there's no reason to pump this pot here. its not like mp1 posted a blind.

it is bad.

[DCWildcat]

Good stuff. And now I know better.

(explanations are good)

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, why is a PFR so bad here?

Pokerstoved, giving SB a random range (it's prob. pretty close to that) and MP1 a fairly wide range (say 22-99, A2s-ATs, A2o-AJo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, K9s-KQs, QTs-QJs, JTs, T9s), we've got a very slight equity advantage. While we're OOP, taking control of the hand helps that out a lot. Neither SB or MP has showed much strength and we're very likely buying this pot on the flop.

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Using poker stove for looking at pf decisions is pretty inaccurate. First we're dealing with unknowns. You really have no idea what the range of an unknown is in the abs 5/10 fr game unless you've played tens of thousands of hands there. For example, giving sb a random range isn't even close to accurate. The other more important problem is that pf equity doesn't translate directly into post flop EV.

Even though this isn't the exact same thing I think this post by TStone about openlimping OTB against two loose players in the blinds gets the point across as to why raising here isn't good. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post4320454

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey rsliu - try posting this in the Micro-Limit forum. This forum is actually for shorthanded games, 6 players or less. Which is one of the reasons that some respondents have suggested raising preflop, as they don't seem to realize it is a full ring game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first two players folded so this is pretty much a 6m hand imo. The only difference is that an unknown 5/10 fr player is different then your standard 5/10 6m unknown.

A PFR here is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Duh, I read this as a $0.50/$1 game, I was so tired last night - I meant the Small Stakes forum. Maybe I should follow disjunction's example and register as a certified moron.

Regardless, raising this preflop from the BB after 2 people are in is bad, for the reasons that milesdyson mentioned. Your position is fair, your hand is fair at best, and you want to keep the pot small here. That way you can take a stab at a weak flop, and it will not be correct to call with overcards, a gutshot, or other weak draws.