The Illustrated Guide to No-Limit Hold'em mini review - Page 3

Niediam · #21 06-16-2006, 10:49 PM

It seems that our main disagreement is how we are doing in the tournament. I view this situation as 'ut oh we are in trouble' while you seem to view it as 'Sweet we are in 3rd place!'

I'd try to explain this more but there is no way I could do a better job than Dan does in HoHv2 so I'll let you review that and hopefully you will have a better idea where I am coming from.

Feel free to ask if you have any other questions.

Leavenfish · #22 06-17-2006, 12:22 AM

Agreed, that may be the sticking point. I'll check out HOH 2 this weekend and try to find the example you allude to.

---Leavenfish

Matt Ruff · #23 06-17-2006, 09:50 AM

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You do know that you do not always go all-in with a 'probably best' hand don't you--that it can even not be the best move?

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I do, and I'm sorry if my answer was a little glib, but, well, so was your question.

What really makes this hand a must-play is the size of your chip stack relative to the blinds. The fact that you are "third in chip position overall" is misleading. With the blinds about to eat a quarter of your stack, overall chip position is very fluid. It's true that one or more of the shorter stacks may bust out on this orbit, but their chips won't disappear, they'll just go into someone else's stack, and if you're tossing away premium hands like JJ, that someone won't be you. So what'll happen is, very quickly, you'll drop from third place to last, you'll still need to make a move, and odds are you'll be forced to make it with a worse hand.

So, better to make a move now. And given the stack sizes at the table, all-in is the only move that really makes sense.

Matt Ruff · #24 06-17-2006, 10:47 AM

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Yes, JJ is a great hand--I would love to have it 2 or 3 seats down! Yes, there is no 'position' to be considered after the flop. By 'out of position', I was simply saying that our hero was out of position to bet everything UTG. You simply can't be sure how many of the remaining hands might have something dangerous

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I think you're underestimating the strength of JJ. The only hands you really don't want to run into are AA, KK, or QQ -- against them, you are a serious underdog. Against AK, AQ, and KQ, you are a slight favorite. Against anything else (except JJ), you are at least a 70% favorite, and could be as much as a 90% favorite.

These are great odds even in the best of circumstances. Given the situation, I'd be happy to gamble with less.

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This all in looks like a scared middle pair and will invite callers eager to double up given their situation, IMO.

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Again, don't let the "third chip position overall" thing fool you -- you're in a desperate situation too, and you'd love to get called here, since you'd likely have the best of it. For the same reason, if your opponents really do put you on JJ, they *shouldn't* call you with anything other than AA-QQ, AK, AQ, or KQ.

But since they really don't know what you have, and since you could be going all-in with a much weaker hand, you're apt to get called by any pocket pair, any ace, any king, or a suited connector -- hands which you are a favorite against.

As for your prospects in a multiway pot, I think Niediam's posts do a nice a job of covering that. Your main mistake here is in thinking that having 6400 chips is much better than having 3300 chips. That would be true if the blinds were 50/100, but not when they are 500/1000. Pocket jacks are a gift from the poker gods; don't waste them.

Leavenfish · #25 06-22-2006, 06:19 PM

Thanks Niediam! I read over the sections in HOH2 you emailed me about and as it sunk in, I began to understand just why the all-in is the only real play in this situation. Thanks again!

---Leavenfish

jeffnc · #26 06-25-2006, 02:24 PM

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It is important to note that you are under the gun so you have the absolute worse position possible

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That's precisely one reason to go all-in rather than limp as the author suggests - going all-in nullifies your positional disadvantage.

jeffnc · #27 06-25-2006, 02:29 PM

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Yes, JJ is a great hand--I would love to have it 2 or 3 seats down! Yes, there is no 'position' to be considered after the flop. By 'out of position', I was simply saying that our hero was out of position to bet everything UTG. You simply can't be sure how many of the remaining hands might have something dangerous and the more players, the more JJ's value goes down. This all in looks like a scared middle pair and will invite callers eager to double up given their situation, IMO.

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You have a much better chance of tripling or doubling up than they do. "Much better chance" - hey that's pretty much what good poker is all about, eh?

The fact that you are first to act works in your favor anyway. It looks like you have a stronger hand than you do because you're early. It's true that sometimes a raise of about half your stack when you have a very low stack looks quite strong, as this is what AA or KK might do. However, folding to someone who then comes over the top is, as someone already said, absurd.

gusmahler · #28 06-26-2006, 01:19 PM

What kind of tournament has that structure anyway? Only 5 positions pay, the guy 3rd in chips has an M of 4 and the guy 2nd (or first, we aren't told) in chips has an M of 6.

And given that kind of tourney, surely at least one of the guys with an M of 2 would have pushed long before this hand. Does the author just make this up without any intention of trying to have realistic situations?

Niediam · #29 06-26-2006, 05:49 PM

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What kind of tournament has that structure anyway? Only 5 positions pay, the guy 3rd in chips has an M of 4 and the guy 2nd (or first, we aren't told) in chips has an M of 6.

And given that kind of tourney, surely at least one of the guys with an M of 2 would have pushed long before this hand. Does the author just make this up without any intention of trying to have realistic situations?

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I have seen somewhat similiar situations a few times in three and four table SnGs.

Leavenfish · #30 06-26-2006, 06:13 PM

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And given that kind of tourney, surely at least one of the guys with an M of 2 would have pushed long before this hand. Does the author just make this up without any intention of trying to have realistic situations?

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Bad thing happen to good people you know...particularly if you are learning how to play the game. The example is okay, his solution is bad though.

---Leavenfish