50-100, four´way pot going a little crazy

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
just like to contribute to the forum's unanimous decision: misplayed on every street.

James

[/ QUOTE ]

ha old school.

[hoppscot22]

but seriously is that flop just atrocious? or not that bad?

[MitchL]

I think the point of the OP is that in LHE you can make a retarded spew look genius as long as you river good.

[Raxxmataxx]

So zero thoughts on range vs ranges and that sort of thing?

I mean, I'm completely aware that this line with KQ very *probably* doesn't do to well. Thing is, we don't know what that probability is, and if you look at a line with 0 bluffs in them that is very easy to exploit, and can easily be done so even by mistake. So adding a tiny percentage of bluffs shouldn't be a big mistake, even if you do take a very exploitive view of the game.

I'm getting the impression that nobody who posts here actually does any thinking in terms of strategy mainly in terms of your *own* range vs the opponents' rather than your specific hand.

Which surprised me a little since that should done by anyone who've read Math of Poker, or listened to HossTBF, Terrence Chan, Bill Chen or a host of other well known players, as well as being fairly common in the NL-community here.

Ie, I was hoping for something along the lines of "that's a [censored] hand to bluff with because it's call down value is so good and you'll have other hands in your range that can be bluffed instead, with less lost in call-down value, the very small fraction of times you should actually be bluffing"

Instead I got "that's a bad bluff because you'll get called." Which is really elementary-grade poker thinking of the type that's presumably been around about as long as poker. And it's also the sort of thing you can't much learn about except by playing.

Or at least "those guys play so exploitably that you should have 0% bluffs in your turn raise".

[killsadie]

both had QT, you were ahead after J_Mena folds the best hand. nh fish.

[Raxxmataxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the point of the OP is that in LHE you can make a retarded spew look genius as long as you river good.

[/ QUOTE ]Technically it's the "opponents rivering bad."

Also, no-one seems to think I'm a genius. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Raxxmataxx]

[ QUOTE ]
both had QT, you were ahead after J_Mena folds the best hand. nh fish.

[/ QUOTE ]That strikes me as a pretty strong possibility too. Though I suppose it at least strengthens my position that their ranges were wide enough to valuebet preflop.

[Raxxmataxx]

[ QUOTE ]
but seriously is that flop just atrocious? or not that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]Well, you should think that it's an interesting situation regardless of how retardedly you think I played the rest of the hand.

A quick look at propoker tools gives me 18-20% of showdown equity with opponent ranges of 20%-10%-10% and 30-20-20, respectively. So it seems very unlikely that there's any sequence that's going to make folding right with a good implied odds hand here and 12 bets from the preflop betting.

And this should also factor in that there is some scare factor from me capping pre and that we probably can largely exclude QQ+ and AK from the small blinds coldcall preflop.

For instance, there's going to be some hand line-ups where me betting out leads to only one bet per person going in on the flop instead of two. Ie, the ones where the guy two steps to my left would have feeled comfortable raising my weak check and the PFR:s 1-bet.

It's going to be pretty hard to instill the fear of AA in anyone here if I check. Something that's very useful even if all you want is a cheap river card with no bluffing intended.

So I don't think that the flop play is particularly clear at all, almost no matter whether you think your opponents are predictable donkeys or you're thinking about the hand in balancing terms.

NB: Still not claiming I did any great thinking at the table. At the most I put about 5s worth of thinking into any decision made during this hand.