CAZ 40-80 Hand 2

[AZplayer]

Mid-afternoon, mostly regulars. I've been super-tight last hour - played 2 hands as a couple of maniacs have been going at it. In the last 15 minutes we've had 3 hands get capped preflop with AT LEAST 5 players in it.

EP, I raise w/KdKc and get a cold-caller to immediate left. Blinds fold. Villain is somewhat LAGgy middle age Asian male with whom I've played enough to read reasonably well.

Flop Th8c4h. I bet he calls.

Turn is 2h. I bet, he raises, I 3-bet, he calls.

River is Ac. I ... ??

Thoughts on all post-flop streets appreciated. Heck, pre-flop thoughts also appreciated.

[WMB]

bet/fold river. rest of hand fine.

[AZplayer]

WMB - thank you for the response... and I'm still learning this, and I get stubborn. If I'm going to bet/fold (putting 80 in and folding if I get raised) why wouldn't I just check-call (putting in the same 80 and at least seeing the hand and getting paid if he's bluffing).

If you can explain the thinking a bit more thoroughly I'd appreciate it.

[counterspell]

[ QUOTE ]
WMB - thank you for the response... and I'm still learning this, and I get stubborn. If I'm going to bet/fold (putting 80 in and folding if I get raised) why wouldn't I just check-call (putting in the same 80 and at least seeing the hand and getting paid if he's bluffing).

If you can explain the thinking a bit more thoroughly I'd appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not too complicated. bet/fold is better than check/call when villain will call with more hands then he will bet with and you can SAFELY FOLD TO A RAISE. all caps = important. you'd better be sure in a pot this large.

[WMB]

[ QUOTE ]
WMB - thank you for the response... and I'm still learning this, and I get stubborn. If I'm going to bet/fold (putting 80 in and folding if I get raised) why wouldn't I just check-call (putting in the same 80 and at least seeing the hand and getting paid if he's bluffing).

If you can explain the thinking a bit more thoroughly I'd appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want value from hands that he will call with, but would check behind if you check. Given the action and the board, if you're raised here, you can probably safely fold. You can't check-fold here IMO as the pots too big. And checking to induce a bluff is sometimes correct, but I don't see it here. His range of hands here seems to favor those that will pay off a bet from you, while checking behind if you check. And if he paired Aces with the suited Ace, you lost, but one bet is going in regardless.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
WMB - thank you for the response... and I'm still learning this, and I get stubborn. If I'm going to bet/fold (putting 80 in and folding if I get raised) why wouldn't I just check-call (putting in the same 80 and at least seeing the hand and getting paid if he's bluffing).

If you can explain the thinking a bit more thoroughly I'd appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I first started reading on here I was VERY dubious of using the b/f line for the reasons you state. But then I started trying it and it's made me some money. I notice that not many players in at CAZ take that line. If they get raised they call that bet. The thing is is that THAT also works out well a lot because there are so many players at CAZ that get 'inspired' to raise the scary river card in a desperate last attempt to win the pot.

As another player said you've got to be very sure that you can safely fold and I think that if the regulars seeing you using the b/f line all the time you won't be able to safely fold anymore. That's another factor to take into consideration.

As to the hand:

Id've done the same thing. I don't like the b/f in that spot. The board is trouble, the pot is big, I want to showdown and I don't want to pay 2 BB's to do it. You've shown great strength and unless Villain is a real dope he's not calling unless you're beat but he might bluff. Pretty tough spot, I guess.

[WMB]

Very, very few (I can count on one hand) players I play with (back east) will bluff raise me on the river in that spot. If villain in this hand is capable of that, then yes, c-call becomes more appealing.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
Very, very few (I can count on one hand) players I play with (back east) will bluff raise me on the river in that spot. If villain in this hand is capable of that, then yes, c-call becomes more appealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

At CAZ's 20 and 40 I get bluffed raised more than occasionally. Not regularly but often enough to make b/c or c/c better than b/f a lot of the time. Still, I've been making more money w/ the b/f line than I was since reading about it on here. I'll repeat the problem I see: There are very many regulars in my games esp this time of year when there are so many fewer tourists and the winter residents are gone. If my standard play is the b/f they're going to start raising me more often so I use it judiciously.

[that_pope]

I tried a bet/fold line last night, but after the bet part, I didn't follow through on the fold part dumbly on my part. UTG raises and I threebet KK, button calls, blinds fold, and UTG calls. Flop comes 378 rainbow, UTG bets, I raise, button 3 bets, UTG folds, and I call. Turn comes an A and I check/call. River is another A, and I have to have the 2nd nuts...so I bet, he raises, and I start complainig about being up against quads, and stupidly call. He comments "is quads the only thing that beats you" as he turns over 88, and I said "not if you call 3 bets preflop with that". I know I shoulda kept my mouth shut, but I was more pissed my bet/fold line turned into a horrible bet/call line cause I don't have the game to follow through yet. I do use bet/fold lines as bluffs now though!

[AZplayer]

I don't think I've ever done the bet/fold line, and conceptually I'm struggling with it but I'll have to try it on.

I don't like what I did this hand either, which is to check the river and have villain bet out. I turned my hand over and said "can you beat it" and of course tried to get a read. I was wrong and called. He turned over a black Ace and the Kh.

"Nice hand"

I'm still learning - thank you all for your replies and thoughts.