Donking into the raiser, *theory*

[cts]

I rarely donk into the PFR. I am almost always bluffing when I do and I just mash the pot button. They always fold. Sounds like I should do it more I guess but I really think checking the flop 100% to the PFR fits better into my overall gameplan / ppls tendency to cbet too often.

[cakewalk]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty sure hand 3 we have the least equity against a typical calling range.

[/ QUOTE ]

probably. but the only information we have is that vill is the preflop raiser (has impetus)

[LucidDream]

I don't donk very often but a couple things to think about if you are going to do add it to your game more frequently is.

1) You need to adjust your calling/3 betting range OOP vs some players. Sometimes you should be calling w/ hands you would normally 3 bet w/ and vice versa. Many people already have the 3 betting from the blinds w/ hands they would normally call w/ down, so they just need to start coldcalling w/ hands like AK a certain % of the time.

2) You shouldn't be donking into aggro players w/ marginal made hands if you don't have a plan on how to react to a raise or a float. donk/folding TPWK against an aggro player is just spewing.

3) You should probably be taking notes on how players react to being donked into anytime you see someone do it rather than just starting out the experiment by donking into everyone yourself.

I personally will probably add it to my game a bit but sparingly. If I can get some lagtard to start spewing off all his chips on the flop and turn when he would have normally just c-bet flop and shut down then obv it's good. I just don't know how well it would fit into my overall game at this point w/o readjusting too many aspects of how I play.

Good post though none the less and definitely made me think about some things.

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wpr101,

Every flop? All we have to do is hope they fold no pair which they have most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, ok. Maybe you could explain why or shut up. Isn't that the point of this thread? Seriously, the atitude of this forum is so tiring to deal with.

I think its plainly obvious that the following is true:
1) Some opponents open a lot of hands in the button/cuttoff
2) Most of the time those hands flop no pair
3) Most players can't call down with no pair
4) Leading into their pot doesn't need to work a high % of the time to be a +EV play, just like all bluffs we are laying ourselves odds b/c there is money already in the pot.

I'm not saying lead every flop but I think its clear that with the right image against most players leading is often higher EV then check/folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked what type of flop is a good one to donk bluff on and you said every flop you moron.

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely donk into the PFR. I am almost always bluffing when I do and I just mash the pot button. They always fold. Sounds like I should do it more I guess but I really think checking the flop 100% to the PFR fits better into my overall gameplan / ppls tendency to cbet too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much feel the same way about it.

[Cat]

Thanks for making me think more about this.

I'm not sure I like the examples because I think (a) When people talk about donk-betting they mean HU and (b) I really think donking should be more about your opponent and less about your cards. Ideally, when you're bluffing or semi-bluffing you want to lead at weaker more passive players who are more likely to just fold when they miss; and when you have a good hand you want to donk into agg players who will raise more with air. (A paired flop when you've hit trips is especially good for this.) If I know my opponent and hand fits clearly into either of these situations I like a donk some of the time.

The other place I like a donk bet is 3-handed. Say, the cut-off raises, the SB calls and you do too in the BB. Here I like the occasional donk with air if the SB checks as the CO will very rarely raise you with air with another player to act and will even fold some marginal hands. Ditto the SB who may think you wouldnt bet into the PFR without being strong. I also like betting here sometimes when you have a marginal or good hand on a drawy flop as many PFR's c-bet less into 2 players and you don't want to miss your c/raise and give free cards.

However, at the medium limits, many players give away information with the size of their c-bet so a donk bet isn't so good. One player I play against (at $2/$5) always bets exactly full pot when he's bluffing so I can c/raise him every time with ATC. Some fish will bet v small when they've missed. So, a donk is a useful weapon but very situation dependant.

Sorry, bit long, just my thoughts, could be totally wrong so flame away but at least you set me thinking!

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
imo a donk bet is nothing more than an oddly placed semi- bluff

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not necessarily a semi-bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

elaborate ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not really sure what you're confused about.

A donk bet is simply when you bet without the initiative, it has nothing whatsoever to do with your hand.

[TheJared]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wpr101,

Every flop? All we have to do is hope they fold no pair which they have most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, ok. Maybe you could explain why or shut up. Isn't that the point of this thread? Seriously, the atitude of this forum is so tiring to deal with.

I think its plainly obvious that the following is true:
1) Some opponents open a lot of hands in the button/cuttoff
2) Most of the time those hands flop no pair
3) Most players can't call down with no pair
4) Leading into their pot doesn't need to work a high % of the time to be a +EV play, just like all bluffs we are laying ourselves odds b/c there is money already in the pot.

I'm not saying lead every flop but I think its clear that with the right image against most players leading is often higher EV then check/folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked what type of flop is a good one to donk bluff on and you said every flop you moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I'm sorry, I thought you understood what I was saying.

Donking in should be based on your image, how likely you believe your opponent is to muck a weak/no pair hand, and how many outs your hand will have against your opponents calling range. Sometimes board texture can effect this.

However, a T87 w/flush draw board isn't as good to lead as a A93 rainbow flop because on the prior board your opponents range will want to continue more often. This is similiar to when you raise preflop and they call, which flops are bad to c-bet.

However, to me board texture is the least important consideration and then only as a function of how many outs my hand will have versus their calling range.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely donk into the PFR. I am almost always bluffing when I do and I just mash the pot button. They always fold. Sounds like I should do it more I guess but I really think checking the flop 100% to the PFR fits better into my overall gameplan / ppls tendency to cbet too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty much exactly where i stand right now. i feel like a jackass quoting such a successful players post and making it seem like these were my thoughts, but they are. for most of my career at anythign above 2/4, i've just checked to the pfr and CR bluffed a lottt. this has been successful for me, and somewhat of a trapping style that i have.

anyways, now though i'm really looking to expand on that and lead sometimes (because i think it's necessary and i'm really staring at relative position when i'm thinking about leading in m-way pots). a major reason tbh is that i am friends with someone who is a durrr fanboy, and says he donks a LOT. this is kind of a weird reason, but if someone is successful, there has to be reasons to do it, etc. even if i at sometime chose to that checking to the pfr is the best thing, i want to know that i at least experimented or whatever with donk betting.

basically, i'm looking at points in time to use this more than just "looks like he missed- it's cheaper to donk bet than CR; let's do that!"

i'll report my findings

[*please note that i'll probably report my findings in a few hundred thousand hands by saying: "haha you donks, i found out where it's awesome to donk into the pfr- hahaha i won't tell you"]

[MYNAMEIZGREG]

Man you just ruined my game.