2/4 B&M - AKh vs A86 (all spades); wait for safe turn card?

[Ricks]

You should raise the flop because a safe turn card will not increase our equity by very much when we have 3 opponents. The equity will most likely shift between the other hands. Another trump will certainly hurt it though. As James said, getting this HU would probably be best.

I ran these assuming SB is leading the flop with a big spade. I also left out the the very top of the ranges for the cold callers because those hands are unlikely. This might be a mistake for a live game but in this instance it makes little difference (I ran it). Also, whether SB has a weaker Ace or a big spade does very little to affect our equity. If he had both, our equity would decrease about 9% on the flop.

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2,786,284 games 89.813 secs 31,023 games/sec

Board: As 8s 6s



Hand 0: 37.12% { Ks9h }
Hand 1: 41.99% { AhKh }
Hand 2: 09.79% { JJ-33, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, AQo-A7o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 09.69% { JJ-22, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }


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2,048,761 games 68.734 secs 29,807 games/sec

Board: As 8s 6s Td
Dead:


Hand 0: 25.69% { Ks9h }
Hand 1: 43.92% { AhKh }
Hand 2: 14.87% { JJ-33, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, AQo-A7o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 13.68% { JJ-22, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }


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3,397,019 games 110.719 secs 30,681 games/sec

Board: As 8s 6s Ts


Hand 0: 96.50% { Ks9h }
Hand 1: 00.000% { AhKh }
Hand 2: 01.84% { JJ-33, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 01.67% { JJ-22, AQs-A2s, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, AQo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }





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121,480,456 games 52.579 secs 2,310,436 games/sec

Board: As 8s 6s Td
Dead:


Hand 0: 27.28% { Ks9h }
Hand 1: 72.74% { AhKh }


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[ChuckyB]

If people will fold on the flop for a raise, raise the flop.

If people will not fold the flop for a raise, just call. And then raise a favorable turn card.

[schnukums]

[ QUOTE ]
Phil Hellmuth would disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is a horrible cash player.

[schnukums]

[ QUOTE ]
how is hellmuth terrible at LHE when he played it all through college and was a winning player

[/ QUOTE ]

You talk to anyone who plays with him in cash games and they all say they love to see him sit down at their table.

[reutel]

I am seeing some advice I don't like in this thread. The board is extremly drawy, the pot is big. Alot of people want to see the turn cheap. We have a very vulnerable hand, and we want people to fold, gutshots, small pairs( hands with 8s, and 6s etc) and small (2,3,4) spadecards. Higher spadecards will not fold. Still we want them to play. If you get threebanged you are probably behind, and can fold easily. You need to be really aggressive in these spots.
[ QUOTE ]

I would call and see what happens behind you.If people start raising you. You can throw your hand away. Keep calling all the way unless a fourth spade hits or someone starts raising. I mean you should not build the pot on the flop for those who is drawing for a flush.Really you do not like the flop you just wants to get away cheap. Do not escalate the pot!
[\quote]

This might apply to no limit, but I don't think this is valid for limit. Bloating the pot should almost never be a concern in limit. It is true that the strongest flushdraw profits when more people enter. If there are several flushdraws, we benefit as well.

[deemark]

Ok maybe I learned something today.Full-ring.
2 pos A5 Hearts, Me 4 pos A10 clubs, 6 pos 89 diamonds.
call I raise,cold call,another cold call and the big blind call as well. 5 players.
FLOP A82 all spades
bet I just call?! and next person called as well others fold
TURN 8 of spades
It goes check,check,check
RIVER a 3
Again it goes check,check,check
And I lost the pot against trips. If I had raised the flop I would won the pot. I have changed my mind about calling the flop and waiting for a safe turn. RAISE the FLOP!!!

[gobbledygeek]

Preflop (10 players): Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop (5 players, 10 SB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, Button folds, SB calls

Turn (3 players, 8 BB): T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, SB calls

River (3 players, 11 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, SB calls

UTG+2 wins 14BB pot with a flopped set of 6's. I guess this is one of the cases where I don't lose as much money as I should thanks to UTG+2's very passive play.

At first I wondered if I had played this hand wrong, cuz I know at a passive table a 2 pair or set will simply call down a 3 card flush board; but I don't really think I had any other option than to bet as letting a free card come would be horrible. I think I like the reasons for raising the flop, especially folding out low single spades (which I think most table regulars would do) and making high single spades pay.