Line check against maniac. 2/4

[TopThis]

Lately I find myself putting a decent amount of money into pots only to fold without a showdown. This seems like it must be a leak. Not this hand in particular but that general idea.

This is a site that does not work with PT so no numbers. My image probably does not matter in this case as I don't think villian is taking note of anyone's playstyle.

Villian seems like a donkament type player. Likes to get his stack in the middle. His bets/raises have no rhyme or reason to them, and certainly do not take into account pot size etc. He's getting a lot of action. Some of the weaker players at the table are paying him off with garbage.

Rest of the table is playing very passive, waiting to catch a hand vs donkament villian and/or calling him down light.

Blinds: $2/$4
9 players

Stack sizes:
Villian(UTG): $900
Hero(MP1): $600

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Villian(UTG) min raises to $8, UTG+1 folds, Hero(MP1) calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Preflop - His UTG minraise = any two cards. I'm not folding 88, and the table is playing passive so I'm not worried about a squeeze behind so I just call.

Flop: [5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] ($42, 5 players)
BB checks, villian bets $30, Hero calls $30. Rest fold.

Flop - this is a decent flop for me. I think there is a good chance I have villian beat, but my hand is not strong enough to take a lot of heat here and I have 3 people to act behind me. They will not squeeze behind here for sure because of villian. If I raise, the only thing I get action from is better hands. The passives probably will not give action with a lone 6 here, and villian will either dump his missed overs or get rowdy if raised. He will obv stick around with higher pairs or a 5. Folding here seems like a nit move, so I call.

Turn: [5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]][J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] ($102, 2 players)
Villian checks, Hero bets $60, Villian min raises to $120, Hero calls.

Turn - His check tells me missed overs. I am happy to take the pot down here rather than face a large river bet (he will bet any river if I check behind turn). The check min raise confuses me. What does he have that plays the hand like this? JJ or 66 would make sense for a normal cash game player, but that is not villian. I feel like folding to the minraise here may be correct? Not sure about my play here.

River: [5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] [5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] ($342, 2 players)
Villian bets $427.15, Hero folds.

River - I don't know what to say here. Obviously does not look scared of quads but donkament players don't even think on that level anyway so who knows. I figure by his bet here I was probably beat the whole way.

So I put almost 40BBs into this pot and don't see a showdown, seems to be happening a lot. bleh [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[soah]

"he will bet any river if I check behind turn"

check turn, call river

given what happened, fold to the raise

[emil3000]

Reraise preflop, checking turn is good, betting is ok too IMO. Fold to the raise.

[CopTHIS]

My personal line would generally be:

Call or 3-bet PF, ususally 3-bet.
Call flop.
Check turn, or bet sometimes (probably a tiny bit more).
As played on the turn, it sucks but fold unless villian makes some amazing min c/r plays. He'd have to be something special on the badness front not to be ahead here.
Fold river.

[Poker_Hoar]

Well you seem overly focused on the villian here when you are playing 88 for set value. I assume that is what you are doing. But there are other people on the pot that can have you beat besides the villian.

I would have put a big raise in on the flop if I thought I was ahead. Why would you let him draw to overcards 'for free' (that is how I see a call in this case). I fold to a re-raise.

I would not put him on 'only on overs' when he raises you on the turn. I would give him credit for a pocket pair of 7's or higher, or a strong Ace, or any suited connectors, including 56. I would fold to his raise on the turn.

As you played you have no choice but to fold the river.

[TopThis]

I guess there are a few things I should add here. Villian has shown a willingness to fold hands post flop. This is why I bet the turn. This also fuels the conclusion that folding to the min raise is correct. The opposite side of the coin is, he drops bombs on you if you act weak.

I'd appreciate a little more detail on what checking the turn and re-raising pre does for me.

Checking turn - I feel like this gives away my hand and lets villian play perfectly on the river. I'm fairly certain he's going nuclear on me on the river if I check the turn, and calling a big bet with a J and potentially another overcard to my 8s on the river is a sick spot. To avoid that spot I bet the turn (and should have folded to the minraise). Is this flawed thinking?

Reraise pre - Here is why I ruled this out. Villian is jamming pre with TT+ or AQ+. Just like a donkament. I didn't want to miss my chance to hit a set here by getting pushed off the hand to a 4 bet preflop as villian has a good chance of paying me off if I get my set. Is this flawed thinking? What should I be thinking instead that makes rereasing pre the better play.

[billyjex]

I think preflop and the flop are fine. There's not really a point where I want to put a ton of money in with this hand; sure, we could raise the flop to protect it, but it essentially becomes a bluff since we can't call a 3-bet and if he calls we're usually way behind.

Our hand might be good though and it's worth trying to see a cheap showdown. I'd check the turn, and if he's that firehappy, I'd call a river bet.

The problem with the turn bet IMO is our hand is mostly defined as either a straight draw or a medium pair and he can take us to pwntown if he feels like it.