WSEX: Official Thread: August & September. (#12 of 13.)

[Benjamin]

I benefit from dealt hands rakeback, I've documented it before. But, I would be happy for them to move to contributed rakeback because I believe it will lead to better, looser games on the site.

It will lead to looser games in two ways:

1) the loosest, worst players will get more money back every week. Which means they can play more hands before going busto. Having the loosest, worst players playing more hands directly leads to looser games.

2) Knowledgeable players like myself and others who read this thread will make the correct adjustments to loosen their game. As I demonstrated in this thread the loosening is significant. Having the knowledgeable players purposefully play more hands will directly lead to looser games.

I like loose games. Everyone I know likes loose games. So, I think that a move to contributed rakeback at WPEX will be a good move for the future of the site.

[SomethingClever]

Your argument has a big flaw. If the good players "adjust" and play a more optimal loose style, how is that really better for anyone? It's not going to make for the same kind of "loose" game you say you enjoy. It's going to be a table full of 30/25 durrrr wannabees.

[Mitch Evans]

Ben, maybe you'll actually play on the site if they make the switch, yes? There's a guy there with your 2+2 handle that I've only seen play there twice in the last month. When they do make the switch do you promise to play there everyday despite the very good chance the games won't be any looser? It would be good of you to play there daily since you're lobbying the hardest.

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
Your argument has a big flaw. If the good players "adjust" and play a more optimal loose style, how is that really better for anyone? It's not going to make for the same kind of "loose" game you say you enjoy. It's going to be a table full of 30/25 durrrr wannabees.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looser is better, in practically every player's eyes, IINM. Ask anyone if they would rather play on a looser table or a tighter table, and it will be a rare person who says tighter.

I certainly acknowledge that the knowledgeable players correctly loosening their standards does not convey any advantage to me in terms of my expectation in the game. Others who are less informed will not be so aware.

When a bad player sits down with a bunch of knowledgeable players correctly playing very TAG, he will recognize this fairly quickly and will not be eager to play long or return. The same player sits with a bunch of knowledgeable players playing semi-LAG TAG poker will get more action and it will be easier to for him to fool himself into thinking he has a chance.

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a guy there with your 2+2 handle that I've only seen play there twice in the last month.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean BenJammin, that's me.


[ QUOTE ]
When they do make the switch do you promise to play there everyday despite the very good chance the games won't be any looser?

[/ QUOTE ]

No


[ QUOTE ]
It would be good of you to play there daily since you're lobbying the hardest.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm bringing a logical, fact-based perspective to the issue, on a forum where the participant's self interest dictates that this perspective will not be popular. I haven't posted anything on the subject for almost a month before today (and then only to correct a grossly wrong assertion), and I was only prompted too today by the ongoing onslaught of one sided posts that acknowledge no potential benefit for the site going to contributed. There is another side to the story: I'm telling it.

If you perceive that as 'heavy lobbying' that's fine, but it doesn't obligate me to play on a site where there are no games running that I want to play in.

[poker007]

Someone tries to make a case for contributed .... lets talk about known examples of sites that switched :
AP en ultimate bet ... did they get more players ? NO if anything they lost players and alot of players were very upset about the switch.
I know another site where they switched too and I play at the site, but since they switched I play alot less cash and only mtts , anyway the games became tighter actually and I can't say that there are more players now than before. Also it sucks for vip points or whatever it is called on the different sites. Contributed makes it alot tougher to gather VIP points if the structure is not changed. Actually that one site I play at did change it so you could get more points than before max 15 points instead of 1 point and you know what ? It was still tougher to get them than before.

If we on the other hand look at the sites that have been doing well .... fulltilt , pokerstars and everest all 3 use the dealt method. Yes there are of course other things involved too, but it seems to indicate that dealt method is generally preferred compared to contributed. Even the "bad" players like it more. Of course everest made a stupid decision imo then to make the lowest limits only for new players ....

That is maybe another thing for wpex : make sure your lowest limits are really low 2/4 cent and start from there. That attracts the beginning players and some of them do get better and move up.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
When a bad player sits down with a bunch of knowledgeable players correctly playing very TAG, he will recognize this fairly quickly and will not be eager to play long or return.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how much you play at wsex these days, but the games aren't really that bad. It's just that there aren't enough tables open, or enough players.

This contradicts your statement that bad players will recognize that the games are tight and not stick around.

The ratio of bad players to good players is actually OK. I'm beating the games and I am really nothing special at poker.

Now, if they switch to contributed rake, I am very likely to take my 15,000-20,000 hands per month elsewhere. And I suspect other high volume players will as well. The games that are currently hanging on by a thread will die.

Fish don't often start new tables and play HU or extremely shorthanded until more seats fill in. I do. Every day.

75% rakeback ought to be a good enough gimmick to get more players to the site. They need to take that 25% they're skimming off the top now and start marketing. Making a change (from dealt to contributed) that few bad players will understand, let alone care about, and will also hurt the guys that are keeping your site alive is a bad idea IMO.

Whatever, I've said my piece. If wsex changes, I will probably leave. Good luck.

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
lets talk about known examples of sites that switched :
AP en ultimate bet ... did they get more players ? NO

[/ QUOTE ]

These examples are different enough from WPEX to not be comparable. Earlier I offered two ways that switching to contributed will loosen play: 1) Loose bad players get more back and so last longer and play more hands. 2) Knowledgeable players will correctly loosen up.

On AP and UB it is mainly the knowledgeable players who get
rakeback. Most bad loose players do not know about rakeback and do not receive it. So the first of my two paths to looser play is not available on those sites.

On AP and UB the amount of rakeback is significantly less than on WPEX, and so the effect of knowledgeable players correctly loosening their standards is diminished. The analysis I did on the Poker Theory board was for 100% rakeback. Cutting to 75% rakeback diminishes the loosening effect, but cutting all the way to 30% rakeback will make it close to negligible. So the second of my paths to looser games is also not in play on those sites.

I don't know anything about Everest.

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how much you play at wsex these days, but the games aren't really that bad. It's just that there aren't enough tables open, or enough players.

This contradicts your statement that bad players will recognize that the games are tight and not stick around.


[/ QUOTE ]

So now that most pros have given up on the site, it's almost dead, there are a few good games going now and again. No big surprise ... the sportsbook will supply a new bad player or two on a regular basis. Since everyone else is gone, they are not lost in a sea of TAGs and the games are ok, sometimes, when they run. That's what I see happening at this time on the site.

I persuaded two players from my home game to sign up and play on WPEX some months ago. Both did not rebuy because the games were much tougher than comparable limits at Stars or Full Tilt. I think that WPEX's tough reputation is a primary reason why it's so dead. I've heard many a 'pro' whining over the last year about how it's impossible to win there even with the rakeback ... it's definitely gotten a reputation.

So, I disagree that you have proven any contradiction. WPEX's reputation as tough site is part of what's killing it, and the loosening effect of contributed rakeback will help counter that.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
So, I disagree that you have proven any contradiction. WPEX's reputation as tough site is part of what's killing it, and the loosening effect of contributed rakeback will help counter that.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you really think that the average 23/15 player bumping up to 30/23 is going to make the games seem "better" to fish?

Fish don't like when every hand is raised preflop. I'll give you that they like loose games, but they hate aggressive games.

I've been told by huge fish both live and online, "stop raising so much! Let's just limp every hand..." and so forth.

I agree that the site has a reputation for being tough and that it's a problem; I just don't think this change will address it at all.

WSEX: Hey guys, we made a change to make the games looser, come play on our site!
48/5/0.3 Player: What's the change?
WSEX: The looser players get more rakeback!
48/5/0.3 Player: Well, that won't benefit me. I'm like the next Phil Ivey.