Coaching WARNING

[pokersanjuan]

Here it is again, I got a PM saying it was OK to repost.

Also as an aside, I have gotten several PM's from other coaches (thanks guys) saying not to be discouraged and to keep trying. They also added they would have given refunds(some even saying refunds for used sessions). Objectively - of course only positive PM's (coaches who agreed with me)would be pming.

I guess basically it comes down to what you think is fair personally and what isnt...


I hired snowbank as a coach and paid for 5 hours up front at 150$ per hour (first mistake)

After two hours I asked for a refund of the unused sessions and he told me he does not give refunds. The coaching was not bad the first hour, second hour was awful, and he was never available other then the two hours we did.

I literally begged him for a refund or to work something out for me to get partial money back, and he flat out refused saying he turned down students for me and he had no others. (prior to me coaching he was saying how he had a waiting list a mile long for students)

What did I learn? 1)Snowbank is an [censored] 2) dont pay for coaching up front but hour by hour. Your coach is not worth it if he wants money up front for multiple sessions.

I mean if the guy is good ... what does he need so many hours for up front right?

copy of the chat transcript follows

[00:10] snowbank: sup
[00:12] p: yo
[00:12] p: how was vega
[00:13] snowbank: great
[00:13] p: did u win?
[00:13] snowbank: didnt play much poker
[00:14] snowbank: was like even from gambling
[00:14] p: oh ok
[00:14] p: how have u been doing lately
[00:15] snowbank: good just recovering from vegas
[00:16] p: u got pretty wasted huh lol
[00:16] snowbank: ya
[00:17] p: so i really stopped playing...i'm broke
[00:19] snowbank: so what do u do all day
[00:19] snowbank: u work?
[00:19] p: i'm in school
[00:19] snowbank: ahh nice
[00:20] snowbank: thats right
[00:20] p: yeah kind of sucks i wanted to pay for some of school or something
[00:22] p: like pay for tuition or something for a semester
[00:22] p: pay off some loands
[00:22] p: i have so many [censored] loans
[00:28] p: so can we work out some kind of refun
[00:29] snowbank: i dont do refunds, i mean ill help give u advice how to build a roll but i cant start doing refunds
[00:29] snowbank: i turned down other people for u
[00:29] p: ?
[00:29] p: you make so much money what do you need my 450$ for
[00:29] p: we're not going to be doing any more sessions
[00:31] snowbank: i turned down other people for u, u said u wanted to go with me i said u sure u said yes
[00:32] snowbank: ive spent more time talking about stuff with u than any of my other students
[00:32] snowbank: all my other guys have great results
[00:32] p: ok but situations change....more time??? u dont talk to me at all outside of our sessions
[00:32] snowbank: so its not a result of my coaching that u lost money
[00:32] p: my situation has changed i have no money in poiker anymore...i would please lieka refund...for you the money is not a big deal for me it is i really need it
[00:33] p: you have other students that pay you ... and if you are as popular as you say you are (have a waiting list) then you should have students in no time
[00:33] p: for more coaching
[00:33] snowbank: money is a big deal to me
[00:33] snowbank: you are acting as if i can give out money or something
[00:33] p: ok so the money is a big deal...then just based on principal
[00:33] p: i should recieve a refund
[00:34] snowbank: i said i do 4 session minimums
[00:34] snowbank: thats what u signed up for
[00:34] p: PLEASE man...why are you being like this?
[00:34] p: please give me a refund
[00:34] snowbank: if u signed up for cardrunners
[00:34] snowbank1515: they would not give u a refund
[00:34] p: i dont sign up for 6 months at cardrunners
[00:34] p: you do one month at a time
[00:34] p: not 6 sessions like you
[00:34] snowbank: sorry man
[00:35] p: please man...i cant believe this
[00:35] p: youhave 450 of mine
[00:35] p: this is ridiculous
[00:35] p: i am not using your services anymore
[00:35] snowbank: u had how many sessions?
[00:35] snowbank: and so u want a refund of like 1 session?
[00:35] p: 3.. i gave you 750
[00:35] : i gave you 750!!!
[00:35] p: you have 450 of mine
[00:35] p: in unused sessions
[00:35] p: it is only fair if you are not giving me my product
[00:36] p: just as a courtesy man ... please ???
[00:36] p: you have a lot of students
[00:36] p: and a waiting line
[00:36] p: you are going to make kmoney on the studetns
[00:36] p: and you make a lot in poker
[00:36] p: for me 450 is a lot of money to me
[00:36] p: even if it's not about the money just on morality
[00:37] snowbank: that u r backing out
[00:37] snowbank: not me
[00:37] snowbank: think about it
[00:37] snowbank: u cost me students
[00:37] p: PLEASE
[00:37] snowbank: i referred them to other people
[00:37] p: i cannot use the sessions
[00:37] snowbank: than get a job seriously
[00:37] p: WHAT....that has nothign to do with you giving me a refund????
[00:37] p: please man ... please...
[00:37] snowbank: so let me get this straight
[00:38] snowbank: u cost me money from turning down students
[00:38] p: i am begging literally for a refund
[00:38] snowbank: and want me to give you money
[00:38] p: you have other students and a waiting line
[00:38] p: i can refer everyone i know to you
[00:38] snowbank: that makes no sense if u think about it
[00:38] p: we did two sessions
[00:38] snowbank: and u know that
[00:38] p: please dude jesus man please
[00:38] p: it makes total sense
[00:38] p: what is your cost missing???...we did 2 sessions in 3 weeks??? how much could you have POSSIBLY lost in other students
[00:39] p: you have a waiting list and students you ahve now
[00:39] p: if your problem is turning down students and $ you make so much in poker and other students
[00:40] p: 450 is a month of rent for me man
[00:41] p: are you there????
[00:44] p: are you still there?
[00:46] p: can you please say something if you are there
[00:47] p: i am begging you....please dude....
[00:53] pokersanjuan: are you there?
[01:26] pokersanjuan: i need to go to bed it is 130 here
[01:27] pokersanjuan: if u r there can we please talk more
[05:01] *** "snowbank" signed off at Tue Mar 06 05:01:42 2007.

[Perk76]

First.

[Keyser.]

ok, I might be off but the way I see it is that snowbank is in the right here if he can prove that he really did turn down other students in order to provide coaching for pokersanjuan. Because if he did refer potential students to other people then pokersanjuan not upholding his end of the deal costs snowbank money. so, is that true?

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess basically it comes down to what you think is fair personally and what isnt

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, that is what it should come down to. You seem to be confusing what's fair and what's in your best interests however. The agreement you made was to prepay X$ for sessions. You paid the money and the sessions have been made available to you. Your agreement is fulfilled. There was no stipulation that you could get a refund on unused sessions, and therefore no such stipulation exists. There is nothing unfair about you not recieving a refund for sessions you don't use.

That's not to say that refunding your money wouldn't be in both of your best interests. Yours because you get your money back, snobank's because negative word of mouth is 10 times more effective than positive word of mouth, and reputations are often impossible to repair once damaged.

It's unfortunate that this went down this way. Don't make it worse than it has to be by taking a "if I'm going down I'm taking you with me" attitude. Argue for what you want, but do so in an adult manner. If you don't get what you want, take it like a man.

[dmoney]

why does it matter if he has other referals or not, they both had an agreement, one side no longer is willing to use the remaining time for coaching (because he went bust) he still cna technically get coaching but just not playing poker currently.

he can still learn withouth having money in his account.

the only reason he watns his refund is so he can get bakc to playing poker wihtout havin to find a way to deposit.

[kitchma]

If I'm reading this right, you bought a bundle of sessions and now want the unused portion refunded. If you wanted to pay for individual sessions, you should have negotiated that arrangement upfront. It's not Snowbanks fault that you went busto and can no longer make use of them. Now, if he was refusing to do the remaining sessions, then you would have a right to a refund, but it sounds like that is not the case.

[Keyser.]

[ QUOTE ]
why does it matter if he has other referals or not, they both had an agreement, one side no longer is willing to use the remaining time for coaching (because he went bust) he still cna technically get coaching but just not playing poker currently.

he can still learn withouth having money in his account.

the only reason he watns his refund is so he can get bakc to playing poker wihtout havin to find a way to deposit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it matters because if OP won't be using his coaching he's paying for a service that he won't receive, and that doesn't cost snowbank anything so him keeping the money by saying he has a no refund clause is kinda sketchy.

but again, from a business standpoint snowbank hasn't done anything wrong so it's his decision.

[Slap My Jack]

You made an agreement (basically a contract), and you should uphold it.

The lesson from this to everyone is basically find out ahead of time if you can cancel for a partial refund if you prepay for coaching since you decide you aren't getting anything out of it.

The best and probably most honest thing you can do at this point is to post a detailed review of your coaching experience with him. What did you want to get out of it that you didn't? Where did he [censored] up?

[pokersanjuan]

I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

[pokersanjuan]

Also, the first time I ever heard of no refunds from him was this conversation.