200-400 Hand.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you would call online and fold live. Can you explain that? It seems like this is a call just because of math, why should the arena change it at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his basic assertion is people 4-bet lighter online than live, and it's less likely your K/J outs are good live. However, I'd claim that the BD draws alone make it a call.

[Steve Giufre]

Call, not real close.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't help but wonder why sklansky posted this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

bc a few years ago everyone would cry "dominated" and fold.

[Shandrax]

First of all, if it was an easy decision, I assume that DS wouldn't have posted the question [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Now what do we have?

Positive:
- 1 overcard
- 2 backdoor draws
- pot odds
- pot is protected (they can't bluff)

Negative:
- dominated hand
- position
- pot is protected (I can't bluff)

What could they have?
The guy on my right could have anything in the top 40% including A-K, 7-7, Q-9s, K-T or even J-T etc.
The button should be much stronger and have T-T or better and A-Qs or better.

Let's say I take one off. If I hit a king on the turn I have to fold to a raise from the guy to my right (even if I beat him), because I am dominated and sandwiched. If I pick up a straight or flushdraw and the button raises, I re-raise.

The point is that playing this way, I ignore my overcard and play for my backdoor draws only. So instead of ~3.5 outs, I only have ~2. Unfortunately with just 2 outs it would be a close fold. On the other hand if it is likely that the guy on my right will not bet out and try for a checkraise if a king hits, I can let it go easily and otherwise play for a cheap showdown. I doubt the 5 more outs mean a lot if the action gets hot.

I think it's a very close call and it all depends on what happens if a king hits.

[freewheeler]

I think the key point here is that it IS a thin call but for interesting and non-obvious reasons. The most important thing is that hero must play well enough to not get killed on the pair outs that make 2nd best hand. You can't really say that the back door outs alone are enough (which I think they just about are) unless you play well enough to get away cheaply from a dominated hand - but be careful not to throw away the winner either...

[d10]

[ QUOTE ]
The most important thing is that hero must play well enough to not get killed on the pair outs that make 2nd best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time this won't be possible. It's not a good idea to fold a hand that has any chance of winning a SD once the pot gets this large in LHE. If a player hits a pair on the turn (especially a K), it's going to take a lot of action or a very straightforward Villian to get away from the hand.

[theBruiser500]

does anyone like this spot for a bluff raise. the first guy in looks weak, maybe a pocket pair of some sort which i think he'll fold on the turn or river (and even if he doesn't you have 7ish outs) and the 4 betting button. all the bets came in LP so he could have like 88-JJ or AK and maybe fold those guys. it was 4 bet 3 way preflop so a raise here shows some solid strength IMO. thoughts?

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone like this spot for a bluff raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

nope

[The Funky Llama]

[ QUOTE ]
he could have like 88-JJ or AK and maybe fold those guys in a fantasy world filled with fairies and gnomes

[/ QUOTE ]

[freewheeler]

Yeah, that's part of the point. Mathematics are great, but when computing your odds and your risk/reward calculations don't forget to factor in the possibility that you wind up paying off with this hand. How capable you are of making a difficult fold is an important factor in whether or not you should play the hand. One of the most important principles in LHE is to avoid getting yourself into dominated situations. It's the potential for becoming an expensive hand that makes it ok to fold this. I think it is very borderline between fold/call, with calling becoming slightly better ONLY for very disciplined players. Players like me who have a hard time letting go of half-way decent made hands are probably better off to just release this thing now.