Free Showdown

[James.]

i think this example might have been better if we had a hand like 55 or something.

note to elindauer or niediem or whoever else is reading this thread. i have previously acknowleged that this isn't a prime spot for the FSDR. truth be told, i don't really like FSDR that much and only mix them in to help balance my turn raises with made hands and bluffs/semibluffs alike. in this particular hand i actually rivered a red 9 and valuebet it. villain called and showed down A7s.

the primary point i'm trying to drive home is that the free showdown raise is best when:

*you don't need to call a 3bet
*the probability of villain betting a worse hand on the river is low
*you have little chance of improving if behind
*you have the possibility of folding a better hand

in this particular hand, i do think if villain is c/r and leading the turn with a hand like A7 the value of him folding his 5 outer some % of the time is more than nonsignificant.

i also think when a paint card comes on the turn it's not outside the realm of reason a player like this can find a fold with a weaker ten as often as 3-5% of the time(there is a very distinct argument towards this point and i'll see if someone brings it up before i mention it).

i do think it's going to be a minority of his drawing hands that 3bet the turn. at this level players don't play strong draws as tenaciously on the big streets as they do at higher stakes. at about(online) 10/20 or higher i think this turn will be taken to 3town far more often by a drawing hand than you will see in a smaller stakes game like 2/4-5/10. fwiw, the line i've taken promotes MUBS in alot of smaller stakes players(it's important to see things from their perspective) because it is the exact line alot of them take(incorrectly IMO) with big hands like sets/two pair. as a result of this, i'm pretty sure this will help mitigate the aggression level this type of player would show on the turn with a draw if he was capable of 3betting it against a guy like me(who FYI is a showdown monkey in most of the games i play online).

finally(and most importantly i think), if he's going to fire the river anyway calling down is mostl likely the superior play. this effectively increases the equity of our hand against this particular opponent's distribution because he will bet such a wide range(versus what he will call with).

there's actually alot more about this particular hand i could comment on, but for now this is enough. primary point being what i outlined above. i am in the camp that generally dislikes the FSDR and think it's actually one of the more misapplied concepts on the forums these days.

[elindauer]

James writes that some of the things you should look for in a good free showdown raise spot include:

[ QUOTE ]
*you don't need to call a 3bet
*you have little chance of improving if behind

[/ QUOTE ]

However, I think these guidelines are misguided. For example, you can often make free showdown raises with pair + draw hands, where you are semibluffing with outs, then giving up on the river if your opponent calls and you miss your draw. This is best used when the completion of your draw will be very scary, so that your opponent may be inclined to just check-call instead of bet-calling when it hits. Draws to 4-flush or 4-straight are prime examples.

Here's my list of considerations for free showdowns:

- how often will I fold a better hand?
- how often will I fold a hand with outs? How many outs?
- how often will I get outplayed and cost myself the pot?
- how expensive is it to raise and fail to get a fold?

Getting better hands to fold is obviously by far the most valuable, so you focus your attention there. Getting hands with outs to fold has some value, but you don't take much risk of losing the pot to get that. It's more like icing on the cake typically. Evaluating the cost of failing takes into consideration both your equity in the pot when called and how often you get 3-bet.

Here's are a couple examples where free showdown raises may be appropriate, but you have to call if 3-bet:


You raise 8c7c from the button. A reasonably straight-forward small-stakes TAG 3-bets from the big blind.

Flop: 9c 8h 4d. He bets, you call.
Turn: 5c. He bets, you make a free showdown raise.

If you follow the rules put forth by others, you can't raise here. However, it's actually an excellent spot to raise, because you can fold overcards, are planning to call the river anyways, and have great equity in the pot when called. It will be hard, though of course not impossible, for him to 3-bet an overpair. If he does, it sucks, but it's hardly the end of the world as you have excellent equity in this pot.

So you raise hoping your hand is best, but ensuring that 3-bets go in against overpairs when you catch those scary rivers like the 6 and ace of clubs.

-eric

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
- how often will I fold a better hand?
- how often will I fold a hand with outs? How many outs?
- how often will I get outplayed and cost myself the pot?
- how expensive is it to raise and fail to get a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing an important consideration: how often will my turn raise get called by worse hands which would likely check/fold the river UI if I flat call? I.e, draws. Unless of course your read on the villain is that he'll fire another bluff on the river when he misses.

I'm not a big fan of the free showdown raise period, but I don't think this is a terrible spot to try it.

Incidentally, your two examples (draws to a 4-flush or 4-straight) are pretty bad because in those instances you usually have to call a 3bet when it comes. One of the key elements of the FSDR is that we use the play with the knowledge that those will be the last 2 bets we put into the pot unimproved.

I think a good example would be if we openraised OTB with AK and an aggressive (but not maniacal) opponent called us from the BB. The flop comes something like T92 two-suited & we get check/raised. Turn is an offsuit 4. Here, the nature of the board makes for plenty of draws which have to call our turn raise, and our line (apparently waiting for a safe turn card to raise) makes it relatively likely that a slightly better hand may fold (a deuce, small pocket pair, etc.).

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, your two examples (draws to a 4-flush or 4-straight) are pretty bad because in those instances you usually have to call a 3bet when it comes. One of the key elements of the FSDR is that we use the play with the knowledge that those will be the last 2 bets we put into the pot unimproved.


[/ QUOTE ]

lol. Did you read my post? It was all about how you can, contrary to popular opinion, make free showdown raises with hands that must call a 3-bet, along with an example and explanation.

I give up on this thread. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

-eric

[Jake (The Snake)]

[ QUOTE ]


I give up on this thread. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

-eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, this seems to happen pretty often in threads about the FSD.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

I tend to focus on player reads and exploiting tendencies, so one thing I would like to discuss is what kinds of players it makes sense to try a free showdown play against. Since the free showdown is intended to put in more money on an earlier street with the hope of not having to put in any more money in on the hand, then you want to avoid players who will try to make you put in another bet, such as those who will three-bet the turn lightly or who may call the turn raise and lead out again on the river unimproved, whether as a bluff or as a value bet. You also don't want to use this play against a habitual bluffer because you are tossing your hand's bluff-catching value out the window and turning your hand into a bluff.

It feels like the purpose of a free showdown raise is to get a value bet in on the turn because you will have a hard time getting it in on the river. This usually occurs when there are a lot of scare cards that can come (usually, with a drawy board). Also, because the board is drawy, you are raising to prevent a river bluff.

So, I probably disagree with James that the purpose is partly to get better hands to fold. I think the purpose is to get a worse hand to call (you are, after all, betting based on plans to go to showdown), so I do not make a free showdown raise unless I think it is unlikely that my opponent will fold.