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#31
05-22-2006, 10:25 PM
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Re: Bankroll and Moving up
[ QUOTE ]
Bankroll becomes a more serious consideration at higher limits. A 20 buy-in downswing at $1000NL starts to amount to serious cash for most people and can easily happen to a winning player. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't the point of a good bankroll to avoid that very feeling? I'm not sure what it's like to play at high stakes but... Playing at 1-2c and $50-$100 NL should have the same "money value" if you're properly rolled for both, no? 
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#32
05-22-2006, 10:37 PM
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Re: Bankroll and Moving up
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Bankroll becomes a more serious consideration at higher limits. A 20 buy-in downswing at $1000NL starts to amount to serious cash for most people and can easily happen to a winning player. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't the point of a good bankroll to avoid that very feeling? I'm not sure what it's like to play at high stakes but... Playing at 1-2c and $50-$100 NL should have the same "money value" if you're properly rolled for both, no? [/ QUOTE ] In a way, yes. This is something that poker player have to learn to get used to. I am sure the high stakes players have to detach themselves from the $$ value of their chips in order to stay sane. I am assuming that higher stakes games have bigger variance, so you will have bigger swings in terms of buyins... but there is still the psychological difference between $20,000 and $20. -Tick
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#33
05-22-2006, 11:04 PM
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Re: Bankroll and Moving up
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Bankroll becomes a more serious consideration at higher limits. A 20 buy-in downswing at $1000NL starts to amount to serious cash for most people and can easily happen to a winning player. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't the point of a good bankroll to avoid that very feeling? I'm not sure what it's like to play at high stakes but... [/ QUOTE ] Me niether [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I guess I could afford to lose 20 buy-ins at $1kNL, but I'm not going to take a shot at any level, until I'm damn sure I'm a winning player at the level below. I figure I'd need to make 30-40 buy-ins at a lower level before being confident that I wasn't just running good. Moving up isn't really a bankroll consideration IMO this is what people should worry about, not whether theoretically they could go broke playing a higher limit. [ QUOTE ] Playing at 1-2c and $50-$100 NL should have the same "money value" if you're properly rolled for both, no? [/ QUOTE ] It depends on what your alternative sources of income are. If poker is the only way you have of making comparable money, then I agree. But that isn't true at the lower limits. 20 buy-ins at 1c-2c is $40. I'd suggest for most people 1c/2c is little better than play money. They would be better off starting at $25NL.
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#34
05-23-2006, 03:05 AM
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Re: Bankroll and Moving up
AJ, nice post.
One "problem" I am having is that at some point bankroll starts going up much faster than skill. I followed the basic guidelines from 25NL to 100NL, and in the process learned how to play ABC TAG poker. Now that I understand these basics, it's really easy to multitable 100NL and rake in money, without necessarily learning what I need to do to move up further. So despite not playing THAT much at 100NL, my bankroll is nudging $8000. Maybe I'm just being a wimp, but I feel like it's a good idea to work your way through the limits, playing at least 20k+ hands at each before moving up, even if bankroll outpaces this.
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#35
05-23-2006, 03:59 AM
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Re: Bankroll and Moving up
20k hands is about on pace for someone learning to get rolled for the next level. at a winrate of 5ptbb, you win a buyin every 1k hands. win 20 buyins, now you have 40 buyins, or 20 for the next level. maybe you are on a hot streak? but 80 buyins in less than 20k hands, that is a hell of a run.
I had the same attitude as you - I was playing 100nl around christmas and was scared to move up to 200nl, because I had some glaring holes in my game. Then I realized that in spite of the holes, I'm still a winning player, and I will still win, on average, about twice as much, while I work on fixing those holes. you'll fix the holes wherever you play, so why not move up and double your hourly while you learn? jumping from 100nl to 400nl is a huge leap, but jumping from 100nl to 200nl isn't all that big of a leap.
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#37
05-23-2006, 06:09 AM
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Re: Bankroll and Moving up
[ QUOTE ]
20k hands is about on pace for someone learning to get rolled for the next level. at a winrate of 5ptbb, you win a buyin every 1k hands. win 20 buyins, now you have 40 buyins, or 20 for the next level. maybe you are on a hot streak? but 80 buyins in less than 20k hands, that is a hell of a run. I had the same attitude as you - I was playing 100nl around christmas and was scared to move up to 200nl, because I had some glaring holes in my game. Then I realized that in spite of the holes, I'm still a winning player, and I will still win, on average, about twice as much, while I work on fixing those holes. you'll fix the holes wherever you play, so why not move up and double your hourly while you learn? jumping from 100nl to 400nl is a huge leap, but jumping from 100nl to 200nl isn't all that big of a leap. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I should probably just not be such a wimp...I've logged about 35k hands of 100NL at about 7.5PTBB/100, plus a few hundred hands of very successful fish-chasing up to 600NL, to get me about +6k (started 100NL w/around 2k). It just feels like I haven't learned much at 100NL but that money just pours in without me really improving much, but perhaps actually moving up is required before I can get much better. I've been playing 200NL lately every time I feel on my A game, so I guess I'll see whether or not I've improved or not. One issue that comes up with moving up to mid-stakes for me and perhaps many other players is that the absolute value of the money starts to make itself felt. When poker income is small compared to job income, losing a bunch while moving up isn't really a big deal -- losing $300 when taking a shot at 100NL is roughly a day's salary, so no big deal. But losing $1k in a day (or more as I can imagine at higher stakes) is another matter. I know that in terms of the poker bankroll it's exactly the same issue each time you move up, but when the bankroll is small compared to your job income it's very different than when it's comparable or larger.
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#38
05-23-2006, 08:44 AM
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Re: Bankroll and Moving up
Yad,
You have to view your bankroll as a long-term investment. Your goal is to earn a 'return' on your investment. You really should not have to 'withdraw' your principle balance for day-to-day needs. If you do then you should make sure you are playing a level that you are rolled for. One thing that I do is track my YTD return on investment. I look at dollars earned through poker, rakeback and bonuses as a % of my starting bankroll. Now a pro would also want to factor in an hourly rate so he can evaluate the utility of his time. It would be interesting if we could get a high limit poster to post how they approach bankroll management.
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#40
05-23-2006, 11:03 AM
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Re: Bankroll and Moving up
[ QUOTE ]
I had the same attitude as you - I was playing 100nl around christmas and was scared to move up to 200nl, because I had some glaring holes in my game. Then I realized that in spite of the holes, I'm still a winning player, and I will still win, on average, about twice as much, while I work on fixing those holes. [/ QUOTE ] Gold. Also, I have been a culprit of cashing out my SSNL winnings instead of moving up [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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