.02/.04 Turn call with overs?

MandM_WSU · #1 09-06-2007, 10:07 PM

I'm just getting back into the on-line thing. I'm trying to build a bankroll from nothing. I play a lot of live $3/$6 and to be honest the .02/.04 game at Stars is tougher.

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.02.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 (Villain)/ raises, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Villain bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Villain bets, Hero ??? , UTG+1 yet to act

Pot: 8.25 BB

I'm getting a little over 8-1 to call with overs. I figure I have 6 outs at 6.7-1 odds to catch (according to SSHE). Do I call this turn and hope to donk the river?

Input on all streets is appreciated.

Smurph64 · #2 09-06-2007, 10:25 PM

*grunch

the more players in the pot the worse off you are with AKo so the flop I would have reraised and evaluated what to do from there.

A 3 bet coming back is a call and a fold on the turn if you miss.

Your outs are a little high actually. I would say you probably have 3 to 4 outs (you generally assume 1.5 outs per overcard) with your overcards here and implied odds are not very good here either as no draws are apparent.

When you don't go heads up against aggressor on that flop and you miss the turn its an easy fold.

If you do go heads up with donker I call down and book the information for later reference.

BigBadBabar · #3 09-06-2007, 10:25 PM

it's an easy fold - you can't give yourself 6 outs as villain could easily have you dominated (with aa, kk, qq, 99) or reverse dominated (with aq or a9)

Point Blank · #4 09-06-2007, 10:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the more players in the pot the worse off you are with AKo so the flop I would have reraised and evaluated what to do from there

[/ QUOTE ]

Smurph ... i don't see what raising does here any other hand that calls that flop isn't sharing any of your cards ... and a raise wont fold out stuff like A9 (perhaps you can make a case for forcing 34s) - IMO it's better to keep a hand like AQ, QJ, KQ, KJ, KT in this pot; especially since we are likely behind

also, this is easily someone with a big hand that doesn't know how to check raise ... or stuff like TT, JJ 88, A9, 98 (whatever)

turn is a clear fold (imo)

CrMenace · #5 09-06-2007, 10:49 PM

On the flop, the pot is big and we want to be at least calling. But I think I like a raise on this flop. I'd like to fold out BB and UTG, and the potential option of getting a free card. Villain is very likely betting his 99, TT or JJ; But he also may be donking his A-high figuring flop was unlikely to have hit you.

Edit: Oh, and taking it down right now wouldn't be bad either.

As played, fold turn. You have to discount your outs, and I don't think you have 5 fully-discounted outs at your disposal.

CrMenace · #6 09-06-2007, 10:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO it's better to keep a hand like AQ, QJ, KQ, KJ, KT in this pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. Pot is big and I want to improve my chances of winning it. QJ is exactly the sort of hand I want to fold.

Xylocain · #7 09-06-2007, 10:59 PM

The thing is, nobody is folding, you are just making the pot bigger which midgitates the mistakes by people in the hand.

If you can't protect, you are valuebetting, if you are valuebetting behind you are not valuebetting.

Point Blank · #8 09-06-2007, 11:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO it's better to keep a hand like AQ, QJ, KQ, KJ, KT in this pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. Pot is big and I want to improve my chances of winning it. QJ is exactly the sort of hand I want to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry I meant AJ [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

though I don't really care if QJ calls either (if i do hit he doesn't have the odds to correctly call when i raise the turn - if i lose, who cares; he made the mistake) ... and I'm out of the hand on the turn if i don't hit and it's multi way (I'm already, most likely, behind), if heads-up i might try something

Smurph64 · #9 09-06-2007, 11:11 PM

To some extent I agree as value is there whether they stay or go if you hit on a call.

I obviously don't play a lot of math here so for me I play bluff equity and position in these situations.

A reraise opens a few more possibilities that don't exist with a call of the flop.

If I get 3 bet by third person its a clear fold. If I get isolation against early raiser and he calls me then I have free card value on the turn.

If I get 3 bet by early raiser its a clear fold on a miss on a turn.

But what do I do if I hit and there are 2 or 3 callers and the early raiser continues to lead?

Do I actually have a value raise position here?

I have read book of bluffs a few times and this reraise is a classic semi bluff flop action move.

Since utilizing it, I have found success. Comparing the bluff equity value by doing this its positive ev so far for me by reraising in this situation.

Playing math with 3 outs if I plan to call both the flop and the turn I am 7 to 1. I don't have the equity to call two bets at 7 to 1 here do I?

Assuming as the donk indicates that I am behind, then how is calling the flop positive?

Its positive if the others stay in but not sure if heads up it is.

If anyone calls one bet they are likely calling two considering the 3 bet situation. If I am ahead of them equity wise then aren't they helping my reraise value no matter what they do?

Probably completely wrong here but I still think its the right move to reraise the flop.

MandM_WSU · #10 09-06-2007, 11:13 PM

I never thought discussion over a .02/.04 hand could be so informative. Thinking back, most of you are right, my outs are a lot less than 6. I very well could be up against A9s or AQ. If I am, I'm a big dog if I do donk my ace. I thought it was a clear fold, but after the hand, I thought a turn call might be +EV (which it wasn't).

What about my PF 3-bet with AKo in an early position. Was the raise correct or is this a smooth call situation?