Was the Bing Bang a Random event?

[pokervintage]

random - 1. All outcomes being equally probable
2. Unpredictable

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No physical event in the universe is "truly" random. We can really only discuss probabilities when assuming a certain level of ignorance. Adding knowledge means that the probabilities change. Absent any amount of ignorance (as would be the case for an omniscient figure), and all events either have probability 1 or 0, even flipping a fair coin.


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A discussion under the omnipotence thread here led to a minor discssion about randomness. mickeyg made the above response to a post of mine concerning randomness.

I agree with mickey concernig random events in the physical universe. But I wondered if there ever was or could be a truely random event. This led me to consider the theory of the big bang.

My limited knowledge has the theory stating that time began at the big bang. Before the big bang there existed a singularity or black hole. The theory of a black hole has all laws of physics break down in the black hole. If this is true, if I have it correct, does this man that events within a black hole are undeterminable and unpredictable?

We humans have knowledge of one event that has occurred within a black hole. That is the big bang (expansion). Since within the black hole events were are unpredictable does this fact alone make the big bang a truly random physical event?

pokervintage

[Borodog]

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Bing Bang

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Sounds like some horrible experiment involving Bing Crosby doing porn.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Bing Bang

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Sounds like some horrible experiment involving Bing Crosby doing porn.

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I thought it was the Italian version of cosmic creation.

~ Rick

[pokervintage]

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thought it was the Italian version of cosmic creation.

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that would be Badda Bing Bang

pokervintage

[teampursuit]

We might still be in that black hole...the Universe might not be able to escape (gavitationally) from itself. So put aside questions about black holes and randomness. I think it's better to realize that since there were no laws of physics before the BB (as you point out), you cannot say what caused it, if anything. In fact, if time is a complex quantity, then there is no 'before' the BB anyway.

[pokervintage]

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We might still be in that black hole...

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not the kind described by most scientists

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the Universe might not be able to escape (gavitationally) from itself.

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a possibility

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I think it's better to realize that since there were no laws of physics before the BB (as you point out), you cannot say what caused it, if anything

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I agree with this unless we make a few assumptions, Lets assume that there was indeed a singularity (black hole) before the big bang occurred. Lets assume that there was an expansion of which we are experiencing. Now finally lets assume that there was a cause of the big bang.Since we could not know the cause as you point out would that lead to a logical conclusion the the big bang was truly a random physical event. If there was a God would it be possible for him to know the cause of the big bang since there were n laws of physics at the time?

pokervintage

[JMAnon]

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since there were no laws of physics before the BB

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We cannot possibly know that.

[pokervintage]

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We cannot possibly know that.

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well according to our physcists the laws of physics break down or are not valid within a singularity. I'm assuming this is true.

pokervintage

[JMAnon]

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We cannot possibly know that.

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well according to our physcists the laws of physics break down or are not valid within a singularity. I'm assuming this is true.

pokervintage

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So what? The "laws" of physics are nothing more than mathematical constructs that allow us to predict observable phenomena. Our physicists are not omniscient by any stretch of the imagination, nor do they claim to be.

True, our current approximations of the universe (which no physicist would claim are complete) do not allow us to predict or describe anything before the big bang or within a singularity. But that does not mean that the big bang was unpredictable or that no predictable laws govern the behavior of singularities. Our laws of physics are based on what we can observe. We haven't discovered a way to observe singularities. If we could, maybe we would be able to create laws that would predict their behavior.

There is far too much we don't understand about our universe to assume that because we haven't found a way to predict or describe an observation, it could never be predicted or described.

[pokervintage]

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There is far too much we don't understand about our universe to assume that because we haven't found a way to predict or describe an observation, it could never be predicted or described.


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I beieve that I said that we must asume that the laws of physics are not valid within a singularity. I also assume that we are saying that because of this, events that occur within a singularity, are not and can not be predicted by any intelligence even an omniscient one. In other words they are unpredictable. An omniscient being would know this is true just as he would know math theories are true and unchangeable. I believe these assumptions are fair given what we assume to be true about black holes (should they actually exist as our physicists believe).

pokervintage