We Are All Sinners With Free Will?

[David Sklansky]

Conservative Christians apparently contend that no one besides Jesus is sinless enough to "deserve" heaven. That's aside from the original sin by Adam stuff. They admit that some are a lot more sinful than others but it doesn't matter as far as "salvation" is concerned.

When this idea is discussed, atheists and others often say "Why would God create beings that were destined to not meet his standards?" To which Christians reply "Because he wanted to give them free will. (In other words the free will to meet them or not meet them.) Or as Not Ready has said, he didn't want to create robots.

But wait a minute. Maybe humans are not robots as far as which flavor of ice cream they prefer. But if it is true that no human (aside from Jesus)ever has or ever will behaved perfectly enough to satisfy God then it is because no one has the free will to do that. You can't have it both ways. If your religion wants to claim with certainty that no one deserves heaven, because of their own sinful behavior, then it must be because God has created man in such a way to make it impossible for someone to behave otherwise. So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.

[Peter666]

People by their natural actions cannot merit Heaven, not because their actions are sinful, but because they are natural actions and not supernatural. They can merit heaven by cooperating with the grace of God (a supernatural action for a supernatural place) if they so choose. How would that make them a robot?

[Justin A]

The problem with this argument is that with each particular decision we can choose correctly. It breaks down to a probability thing. We have some x probability of choosing right on any given decision, but when taken over the course of many decisions, we effectively have no chance of getting everything right.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
People by their natural actions cannot merit Heaven, not because their actions are sinful, but because they are natural actions and not supernatural. They can merit heaven by cooperating with the grace of God (a supernatural action for a supernatural place) if they so choose. How would that make them a robot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that Orthodoxy peter666? It doesn't sound Orthodox to me. I don't think I've ever heard it put like that. You're not denied heaven because of your sins but because you can't do the supernatural by yourself? What happened to Jesus dying for your sins and all that?

PairTheBoard

[m_the0ry]

Free will is really a ridiculous concept that does nothing but discredit religion. In fact, it's one of the greatest logical fallacies of all time.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess, but whats the conclusion from this? It only takes the reply that god made the physical universe with laws that can't be broken. Just because the speed of light can't be broken doesn't mean we don't have free will, and from that same perspective we can have free will without the option of choosing to be perfect. We have free will, but a limited # of choices.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
But if it is true that no human (aside from Jesus)ever has or ever will behaved perfectly enough to satisfy God then it is because no one has the free will to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the idea is that Adam had a chance to not sin. He was not destined to sin. He could have continued to live in a state of grace with god and been ensured of never dying. So it was not God's fault that Adam chose to be disobedient and fall from grace.

However, once Adam did that everything changed. Humanity no longer lived in a state of grace and instead was subject to a Sinful Nature. It's not so much the case that now men were capable of sinning. Essentially they became capable of doing nothing else. Everything a man does is tainted with sin. "Sin" is sometimes translated as "falling short". Everything a man does Falls Short of Perfection. As much as we try to do good works, even those good works are tainted with sin. Nobody has perfect motives. Imperfect motives are a sin. It's the old "lust in your heart" thing we heard from Jimmy Carter.

So no matter how good you try to be you are never "worthy" of God's company. God can't be hangin out with sinners you know. You owe a Sin-Debt to God for all that sinning. You can only be made "Worthy" and have all that massive Sin-Debt of your life paid by the blood of Jesus Christ. His blood washes you clean so you can be Worthy of God's company.

But even though Christ died for All men's sins for all time and all places, it still doesn't count for you unless you ... well I guess this part depends on who you talk to.

Anyway, it all makes sense. It just sucks.

PairTheBoard

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

So as far as this subject is concerned people WOULD be robots without free will.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can never explain all the difficulties involved with Christianity sufficient to answer your questions to your satisfaction. I can't answer them all to my satisfaction. Not in the sense that it all complies with human reason. There are hard doctrines in the Bible, original sin, predestination, final judgment and punishment.

As for free will, some time ago I posted a long explanation of a new, speculative idea I had which was also somewhat similar to a note in theological book by an author I respect. I can look it up for you though I have to say I can't support it directly from Scripture.

Over the past year or so I've developed a new way of thinking(for me) about these unexplainable difficulties. Of course, the traditional way is to rely on God's goodness and justice. The Bible says that's what we should do and I fully accept that - it's part of faith, and includes the concept that God is absolute reason so whatever appears against reason to us is due to our sinfulness and finitude. In the end, I think that's the only real answer.

But one thing you might want to do is gather together all the logical difficulties you have with theism and then ask who has a better solution? Take free will. What other religion or world view really solves the difficulty? Many atheists just end up saying free will is an illusion and it doesn't matter anyway. Or original sin. How do others explain the utterly horrible way humans behave?

I know this doesn't satisfy. As I said, there are no final detailed answers in this life. What the Bible says about the issues, when taken on faith and trusting that God does love us and is absolute righeousness, is enough for me. And every theologian I've ever encountered who is Bible oriented agrees - I guess that's why faith is given such a large place in Scripture.

And I don't know how and can't fully explain it, but we're not robots.

[MidGe]

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How do others explain the utterly horrible way humans behave?

[/ QUOTE ]

They use the concept of their tyrannical god as a role model!

[David Sklansky]

"Over the past year or so I've developed a new way of thinking(for me) about these unexplainable difficulties"

Please elaborate. Also has this forum anything to do with spurring you on to do this?