I am no longer tipping the dealers at CAZ until.......(long)

[Nate.]

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Now that I know that so many CAZ regulars frequent these forums, I can't just assume it's a fish farm.

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I'll let you in on a secret - just because someone spends time at 2+2 doesn't mean they know how to play. 90% of 2+2 is very fishy, the balance of 10% is who you want to avoid. And the really great players help make the game good without you even realizing it.

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Ouch! That really stings.

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DesertCat --

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise. So few 2+2ers frequent the strategy forums, and so many of the ones who do aren't quite willing to use the forums to really improve. The average 2+2er plays poker much as the average coffeeshop intellectual writes poetry--better than average but weakly, predictably, and with an inflated sense of accomplishment.

--Nate

[Rick Nebiolo]

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The primary responsibility for policing the game should rest with the players. When something like the incidents you describe happens, I will ask the dealer to tell the players "one player to a hand," or ask the players not to show cards to other players, or do not dicuss a hand while it's in progress, etc. The dealers are not well-trained, or trained at all, to deal with these types of things.

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Andy,

I think we would both agree that if anything it's much worse here in LA. But I disagree that it's the player's responsibility.

The player's have a role, but to run a good clean game you need a team effort.

That means management must care and invoke training and procedures that are realistic and work.

The floor must care and do their job while knowing they will be backed up by management.

The dealers must care and know and do their job and receive support from the floor when needed.

Of course little of this is likely to ever happen. My observation is poker is essentially an uncompetitive business (or part of a competitive casino business where poker is still a minor part). Then there is the problem of management, floor staff, and dealers (when they play) often being among the worst offenders.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Toke each time a dealer enforces a rule.

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Tweak this a little ("each time" can eventually get expensive) but otherwise this seems like a great idea.

Oddly, one of the few times I've done this is at CAZ. Compared to LA they seemed to do a good job at enforcing game integrity issues (at least when I visited over a year ago).

It's my Monday so I'm pressed for time but I wonder if finding a way to do this effectively and with class is worth a thread of its own.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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If I want a poker game run like a drunken frat party, I will go to a frat house. If a dealer does not want to do his job and enforce the rules, he does not deserve a tip.

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I agree in part but keep in mind that the dealer is in a "lose-lose" situation if he tries to enforce the rules/ethics but isn't backed up by the floor or management.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

To all,

I put a post it note on my monitor to read entire threads (no matter how long) before making any comments (i.e., most of my points were already covered [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

~ Rick

[Hair_of_the_Dog]

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Same thing is happening only worse at Diamond Lil's in Renton Washington.

Avoid that game unless you're one of the family.

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Thanks for the heads up.

[Percula]

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Who monitors and regulates these games? Whispering "CAZ supports collusion and refuses to enforce basic rules to protect the game's integrity" to a regulatory agency, with a nice paper trail of documented examples may help.

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This is the right approach.

While I have never seen the on site gaming official at CA, I know one is on site, as that is the rules. Seek that person out and let them know. Nothing gets the card room more fired up than the gaming official questioning them. BTW, if you ask to talk to them, they have to get you in touch with them.

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My understanding is that the gaming official actually works for the Tribe, not Casino Arizona - which is owned by the Tribe. So in essence there is no true impartial gaming official if that is true.

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You are correct, kind of... Yes the game official is a tribal employee. IME, especially at the Fort with the marked cards situation I posted about a couple of months ago, the poker room staff all the way to the top level management jump when the gaming official says to. I get the impression that they are there to protect the tribe from issues with AZ gaming, i.e. do it right so we dont get ripped by the state.

[*TT*]

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Who monitors and regulates these games? Whispering "CAZ supports collusion and refuses to enforce basic rules to protect the game's integrity" to a regulatory agency, with a nice paper trail of documented examples may help.

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This is the right approach.

While I have never seen the on site gaming official at CA, I know one is on site, as that is the rules. Seek that person out and let them know. Nothing gets the card room more fired up than the gaming official questioning them. BTW, if you ask to talk to them, they have to get you in touch with them.

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My understanding is that the gaming official actually works for the Tribe, not Casino Arizona - which is owned by the Tribe. So in essence there is no true impartial gaming official if that is true.

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You are correct, kind of... Yes the game official is a tribal employee. IME, especially at the Fort with the marked cards situation I posted about a couple of months ago, the poker room staff all the way to the top level management jump when the gaming official says to. I get the impression that they are there to protect the tribe from issues with AZ gaming, i.e. do it right so we dont get ripped by the state.

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Is there a state regulatory commission for gaming?

[pig4bill]

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DesertCat --

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise. So few 2+2ers frequent the strategy forums, and so many of the ones who do aren't quite willing to use the forums to really improve.

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That's because the strategy forums suck. Here's the typical thread:

OP posts a question or hand history

Three guys post somewhat different opinions

OP makes another post to clarify a question

Three different guys jump in and tell the OP he sucks

OP makes one or two more posts to clarify and/or defend himself

Six new guys jump in - one third tells the OP he sucks, one third tells the first three opinion posters they suck, and one third tells the the second three guys they suck

OP eithers joins the fray to tell various and sundry posters they suck OR... he gives up without learning anything new about poker

[*TT*]

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DesertCat --

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise. So few 2+2ers frequent the strategy forums, and so many of the ones who do aren't quite willing to use the forums to really improve.

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That's because the strategy forums suck. Here's the typical thread:

OP posts a question or hand history

Three guys post somewhat different opinions

OP makes another post to clarify a question

Three different guys jump in and tell the OP he sucks

OP makes one or two more posts to clarify and/or defend himself

Six new guys jump in - one third tells the OP he sucks, one third tells the first three opinion posters they suck, and one third tells the the second three guys they suck

OP eithers joins the fray to tell various and sundry posters they suck OR... he gives up without learning anything new about poker

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U have no idea how ignorant your post was. If the strategy forums suck, then how come ABA started playing micro-limits and worked his way up using the strategy forums? How come Stoxtrader just wrote the best limit book ever written when just 3 years ago he was playing 5/10 and posting in small stakes hold'em?

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. You have the right to be as blind as you want to be, but don't try to pawn your opinion off to others as fact when you can't see how amazing those forums are because you want to live with your eyes closed, and how many millions of dollars they have made some people.