YANS (Yet another SAGE question) NLTRN

[TNixon]

Ok, so SAGE still tells me I should be calling with hands I'm simply not comfortable calling with late in the game.

Say, for example, blinds are 25/50, and the short stack has 325 chips, and is in the small blind.

If he is following SAGE, then he's going to push with the top 64%.

HOWEVER...right at the beginning of the original article, they state that "Most players play far too tightly in heads-up jam-or-fold situations".

If this is true (and I believe it is, and that most of the opponents that I play are not pushing anywhere *near* 64% of their hands here), and the SB is pushing with a narrower range than SAGE would suggest, then shouldn't I also be calling tighter than SAGE would suggest? Obviously I'm already ahead from the times he should have pushed but didn't, and will be ahead in the long run just from that, but can't I get even *more* ahead by chucking something like J7o, Q5o, or J5s if I recognize the SB is pushing too tight?

Even though SAGE is non-exploitable, there are certainly situations where it's non-optimal as well, and I *REALLY* dislike doubling up somebody who I know is pushing tight, especially since I already know that they're going to lose ground folding too much, both in the SB and to my pushes from the button.

I don't mind pushing wide at all. I just don't like calling wide against somebody who's pushing too tight. Is that being nitty, or is that correct?

Are there any other lategame (7 BB or less) adjustments that can or should be made?

[PrimordialAA]

ok, you know this is a really good topic to bring up TRNixon and i've thought about it alot and I completely agree with you, SAGE shoves should not be tightened up, but if someone is playing less than optimal by shoving too tight, than I absolutely think the system only makes sense to call tighter, I would love to hear some other thoughts on this though or see some math done [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

yes yes, <----- lazy ;p

[Indiana]

of course u need 2 adjust 2 ur opponents and vary your standards BUT usually these are small tweaks in SAGE standards and unless you are experienced I'd advise to follow the chart because you will over estimate your opponents tightness.

Indy

[XxPenguinxX]

I personally agree that calling light against a tight pusher is a bad idea. If you've got them down at 380, you shouldn't let them out easy. Double them to 760, and then their next double through puts you even. Keep them down below 500, by abusing your stack when you're first to act or they are not being active, but wait for a good spot to try to KO him.

This may be exploitable, but against the tight short stack (who should be even more exploitable) it is more optimal.

[ChicagoRy]

I don't think there is every a reason to justify tightening up sb shoves, but for the bb a slight adjustment may be required, but you need to have a very solid read. Not "the guy hasn't pushed 10bbs deep, now that he's 7 bb deep he's shoving for the first time, he must be extremely tight." That's not enough IMO to justify folding a hand that is required to call.

And if you do adjust I don't think you should tighten up very much at all. A lot less of an adjustment than if he is shoving ATC.

[TNixon]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there is every a reason to justify tightening up sb shoves

[/ QUOTE ]
That I absolutely agree with. As I mentioned, I don't have any problem shoving wide, *especially* against somebody who appears to be playing too tight.

I just seem to run into all sorts of people who fold their button a lot when they're shortstacked, especially if they see me pushing my chips around when I'm first to act.

Against that sort of player I tend to fold a fair number of hands that SAGE would tell me to call with, especially weaker queens, jacks, and tens, and sometimes even weaker kings, like K2o or K3o.

I guess what I'm really wondering is if I'm making a huge mistake by doing that, in situations where it really seems like they are (incorrectly) waiting for a decent hand to put their chips on.

When I'm the one on the shortstack, I don't make those same adjustments, because I know I need to double up, but I just hate to double somebody up and put them right back in the game when I've got them down to almost nothing, in situations where I have enough of a lead that I feel I can afford to be a little bit more patient.

Huge leak or sensible play?

[ChicagoRy]

Sensible to an extent in my opinion. You can adjust very slightly (usually in the 6+bb area like you said) and tighten up against somebody that is just open folding everything. But when they get down low your big blind is worth a lot more and they will get desperate.

I can't tell you how many times I've had people open fold 90% of their hands in SAGE, lose a lead and get to like 6bb and then shove a hand like 45s.

[cwar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there is every a reason to justify tightening up sb shoves

[/ QUOTE ]
That I absolutely agree with. As I mentioned, I don't have any problem shoving wide, *especially* against somebody who appears to be playing too tight.

I just seem to run into all sorts of people who fold their button a lot when they're shortstacked, especially if they see me pushing my chips around when I'm first to act.

Against that sort of player I tend to fold a fair number of hands that SAGE would tell me to call with, especially weaker queens, jacks, and tens, and sometimes even weaker kings, like K2o or K3o.

I guess what I'm really wondering is if I'm making a huge mistake by doing that, in situations where it really seems like they are (incorrectly) waiting for a decent hand to put their chips on.

When I'm the one on the shortstack, I don't make those same adjustments, because I know I need to double up, but I just hate to double somebody up and put them right back in the game when I've got them down to almost nothing, in situations where I have enough of a lead that I feel I can afford to be a little bit more patient.

Huge leak or sensible play?

[/ QUOTE ]
The way your talking it sounds like your trying to justify timid play, I think its very likely you are underestimating your villains pushing ranges I would stick to a slightly tighter SAGE calling range until given a good reason not to, and this does not mean a feeling, cold hard evidence only. Very often people will give no indication that they can push very wide at 6bb and will (thus exploiting you if you play too tight) so until you *know* or strongly suspect otherwise dont give them too much credit when they push.

[cwar]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there is every a reason to justify tightening up sb shoves


[/ QUOTE ]
This is wrong, what if sb called ATC when you pushed? Then SAGE is clearly the wrong pushing range to use when maximizing your EV.